Bush, Cheney subject to arrest?

[buckthesystem]

You are, of course, right here too! My only excuse is that I was again glossing over things to make a point. I still think Israel would have existed without being prompted by the Haulocaust because the Jewish people have been picked on for centuries. Surely people would have realised that that made it so they deserved their own country returned.

Well, if that were true, then Israel would have existed as nation centuries before 1948. Unfortunately, it took something as massive as the Holocaust to bring the world to the realization of what the Jews had already known long before: The Jews needed their own country. The return to Israel was and still is, a main theme of Jewish prayers for nearly two millenia.

Israel, from a totally secular perspective though, was created to be a safe haven for Jewish people to escape the persecution that had been afflicted upon them for centuries in Europe, culminating in the Holocaust. Actually, that was the vision of Theodore Herzl long before the Holocaust and WW2. While millions of other nonJewish people died as well, the Jewish people were the primary target and have the single largest casualty rate in comparison to the other groups. In fact, it is only because Jewish people have kept the memory of the Holocaust alive that we really have any awareness of the others who also died in Hitler's madness.

Here's where I will have to concede that you know more about this than I do. I've got to thank you for the info. I don't understand why it took so long for the world to wake up and see that the Jews needed their country returned. I remember my mother explaining to me when I was very young about the UN vote with regard to Israel, (because at that time it wasn't very long after the event) and she said something along the lines of "people finally realised that the Jews had suffered enough, after what they went through in WWII, and deserved a sanctuary". At that time there were many news items about the fact that it wasn't really a "sanctuary" at all and I was kinda sad. My mother also had a friend who was a "sabre" (a native Israeli) who had married a holocaust survivor (they lived in Israel but wrote to my mother) and she (Sabre) explained the trouble with the British that they were going through so I took an interest in what was going on.

I don't want to believe that so many people had to suffer and die before the world had had enough.

What makes you think the world has had enough? Even now the world expects Israel (the Jewish people) to commit national suicide. Israel is the target of intense, irrational, international denigration. Israel is expected to make insane concessions to blood thirsty terrorists and holocaust deniers like Mahmoud Abbas. Israel is expected to make concessions that NO other country would make were they facing a similar threat to what Israel faces. Israel is condemened and singled out for special condemnation for actions and policies of self-defense that do not warrant even minor criticisms when those same policies are employed by nonJewish nations. Israel is still the ONLY nation in the world that is forced to justify its right to exist. The world has not had a enough. They are just getting started. Anti-Zionism (whether it is expressed by Jews or Gentiles) is nothing more than anti-Semitism expressed on a global scale. Anti-Semitism is the denial of Jews the benefit of equal rights in a given community. Anti-Zionism is the denial of the nation of Israel the right to exist as an equal member of the community of nations.

Yes. All you say about this seems to be totally right. I just have a lot of trouble believing that God would want the Jews to go through something as horrible as the Holocaust before he answered their prayers and had the land of Israel returned to them.

It seems an oxymoron to say on one hand that "scripture says that we are to revere and obey political leaders" and on the other hand say that people should also (by this same scriptural passage) revere and obey the political leaders who expect Israel to make concession after concession until the national is completely obliterated.

After all if there is so much disagreement on scriptural interpretation even on this board, among Christians, how much disagreement is there in the world on what goes against God and what doesn't?

[kari21]

After all if there is so much disagreement on scriptural interpretation even on this board, among Christians, how much disagreement is there in the world on what goes against God and what doesn't?

I rest in the knowledge that NOTHING happens, or CAN happen, without God allowing it.

[buckthesystem]

After all if there is so much disagreement on scriptural interpretation even on this board, among Christians, how much disagreement is there in the world on what goes against God and what doesn't?

I rest in the knowledge that NOTHING happens, or CAN happen, without God allowing it.

I meant that in the sense of: If you believe that it is Biblical to support world leaders unless they advocate something that is unscriptural. If there is contention over what is unscriptural and what is not, then there would be contention among followers of that theory over whether or not to support politicians over a particular point.

I believe that we have "FREE WILL" and therefore can go against God - if we make the wrong choices and choose what is not in his will - and make bad things happen.

[kari21]

I believe that we have "FREE WILL" and therefore can go against God - if we make the wrong choices and choose what is not in his will - and make bad things happen.

Indeed, that is true. My only point being everything that has happened, or will happen, in this world, is because God has allowed it to happen. The very idea that something like the holocaust was an event that God didn't want to happen and could not prevent, is ludicrous.

[OneLight]

[

So, I'm no good at paraphrasing, but I'm sure you're smart enough to get the picture. Just in case you're really having a hard time with it ...

Romans 13:1-7

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes. All you say about this seems to be totally right. I just have a lot of trouble believing that God would want the Jews to go through something as horrible as the Holocaust before he answered their prayers and had the land of Israel returned to them.

It's not a case of God "wanting" them to go through that. God has both a permissive will and a perfect will. God allows things to happen that do not coincide with His perfect Will. God lets people murder, commit adultery, and stuff. God allowed the Jewish people to go through the Holocaust, but it was not God's will nor was it an instrument in God's hand to punish them. He did use it however to bring something good out of it, the nation of Israel. As it is written:

Therefore, prophesy and say to them: This is what the Lord GOD says: I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them, My people, and lead you into the land of Israel.

(Ezekiel 37:12)

It seems an oxymoron to say on one hand that "scripture says that we are to revere and obey political leaders" and on the other hand say that people should also (by this same scriptural passage) revere and obey the political leaders who expect Israel to make concession after concession until the national is completely obliterated.

Well, what the Scriptures teach is that we are to honor political leaders, but it does not advocate or even suggest a blind allegience to them particularly if we are asked to violate biblical principles. For example, if our government tells us that we must begin procreating with multiple partners (for whatever kooky reason they concoct), such would be a violation of Scripture and we would not be bound by the Lord to obey.

We are only expected to obey them insomuch as it applies to those reasonable requirements such as paying our taxes, obeying traffic laws, etc. We are to be model citizens in all areas that do not violate biblical precept. Nothing in the Bible requires us to sacrifice Christian prececpt in some blind allegiance to elected officials.

The issue of Israel is something vehemently oppose the US government on. I am oppose to the current attempt to create a palestinian state.

[Fraught]

I'm not saying that earthly authorities are to take the place of God. But I do believe that God indeed puts all leaders in power all over the world to serve his purposes. I also believe that we are to give them the respect they deserve for being God ordained.

I mean, my head will explode if Hillary gets elected President, but I will give her the respect she is entitled to as our leader.

Would this apply to Hitler if you were living in Nazi Germany?

If I lived during that time, and I was German, I would probably have been loyal to him as the leader of the nation.

Now let me ask you a question:

Do you think Hitler was used by God to bring about the nation of Israel?

The citizens being loyal to him helped in killing 16 million people.

No I don't. The Nation of Israel was already in the works when Hitler came to power. Settlers were already going to Israel and the Balfour agreement had already been made.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0311e.asp

Hitler used by God??? that implies sanction - this is impossible to even consider

[Guest shiloh357]

The Nation of Israel was already in the works when Hitler came to power. Settlers were already going to Israel and the Balfour agreement had already been made.

Israel was nowhere close to being "in the works" when Hitler came to power.

Secondly, there was no such thing as a "Balfour agreement." It was called the Balfour Declaration and that was in 1917. It had nothing to do with the formation of a Jewish state.

The British Mandate of 1921 had already been abandoned by the British government the following year as can be seen in the White Paper of 1922. British oil interests in the region were far more important to the British empire. By the late 1930s, Jewish immigration had been severely restricted while Arab immigration had was untouched. This was due to growing Arab opposition to the formation of a Jewish nation. The British did little during the Mandate period to enable the creation of a Jewish nation as per the Mandate. Instead the British closed the gates to Jewish immigration and this consigned millions of Jews to death in the extermination camps of the Nazis.

[georgesbluegirl]

On the far left are those with the same thought as the group in Brattleboro, VT, and on the far right are those who support Bush 100%. The truth will be found somewhere in the middle.

The article did not mention "war crimes", it did say this:

The measure asks: "Shall the Selectboard instruct the Town Attorney to draft indictments against President Bush and Vice President Cheney for crimes against our Constitution, and publish said indictment for consideration by other municipalities?

Guess you missed this part of it:

President Bush may soon have a new reason to avoid left-leaning Vermont: In one town, activists want him subject to arrest for war crimes.

Yup ... I did ... sorry.

We all, like it or not, are told to submit ourselves to our government. This does not tell us that we have to agree with them, but abide by the laws set down to us. We may not like those in power, but were are to submit, as a slave does to their master. Nothing is said that we have to agree with them. Remember, God is in control, even if we can not see His hand in motion.

OneLight

The "war crimes" label is one the article sticks on, though (aka spin). The way the citizens phrased it is what you should pay attention to.

As for the rest of OL's quote: "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." - TJ

[kari21]

I'm not saying that earthly authorities are to take the place of God. But I do believe that God indeed puts all leaders in power all over the world to serve his purposes. I also believe that we are to give them the respect they deserve for being God ordained.

I mean, my head will explode if Hillary gets elected President, but I will give her the respect she is entitled to as our leader.

Would this apply to Hitler if you were living in Nazi Germany?

If I lived during that time, and I was German, I would probably have been loyal to him as the leader of the nation.

Now let me ask you a question:

Do you think Hitler was used by God to bring about the nation of Israel?

The citizens being loyal to him helped in killing 16 million people.

No I don't. The Nation of Israel was already in the works when Hitler came to power. Settlers were already going to Israel and the Balfour agreement had already been made.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0311e.asp

Hitler used by God??? that implies sanction - this is impossible to even consider

God indeed uses evil men to bring judgment/blessings to His people.

God also used evil men like Pharaoh to bring His people out of bondage. God himself hardened Pharaoh's heart.

God EVEN USES LYING SPIRITS!

1 Kings 22:23 Yahweh has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these your prophets.

God uses DECEPTION.

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

God causes some to believe LIES.

2 Thess. 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie...

Does that make God a liar???????