Faith - it's not just a religious term

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Nope, don't edit it, I was just curious.

Children did die in that plague. Every firstborn did including the livestock of the Egyptians. This would have further blighted an agrarian society's economy.

Peace,

Dave

[nebula]

You said if there is no risk involved, then it isn't faith. I have no idea why you would say that unless you assume that my

OK, I don't know what the rest of your sentence was supposed to be, but the reason I said that was because you mentioned that there was a risk in either decision that you made. So I mentioned that faith involves taking a risk in either decision made as well.

Yes, faith in God is believing that He is and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

But faith is not limited to "belief in God." Faith is an action that we all engage in - actions that have nothing to do with God nor spirituality.

For instance, in making your decision and weighing options, whatever it is you rely on to make your decision is what you are putting your faith in. If you rely on the percentages, then your faith is in the percentages.

That kind of faith can't be equated to faith in god, though.

Sir, I am not talking about "kinds" of faith. I am speaking for the word "faith" in general. "That kind of faith" is still faith . . . of some kind.

My assessment of the percentages will be weighed by certain facts that I know: such as the distance I have travelled without seeing a homestead (this will influence my judgment of how likely I am to run into another homestead), my knowledge of the water table, my assessment of the state of the pump and so on. Now, I could be wrong, but my decision could easily change if other facts came to light that changed my assessment. If, for example, there was a map which showed that there was a town only a couple of miles away, then that would change my assessment significantly and the percentages that I would come up with would be different. So essentially, I'm putting my faith in known facts, and if you're going to use "faith" to describe "a trust in things that are there", then it's a pretty meaningless term.

But you are still operating in "faith," which is my point. Arguing the validity and trustworthiness of that faith is completely separate debate.

On the other hand, your faith in god basically amounts to "the bible said so".

Please don't make assumptions on what my reasons are for trusting in God. The fact of the matter is that He has revealed Himself to me and made Himself real to me.

But again - this is a separate issue from what I am speaking of.

But if archeologists fail to come up with any signs that (for example) there was ever a mass migration of a million people travelling from Egypt to Israel (if this happened, there should be quite strong evidence that it occured), your faith in god will be unchanged. If you pray and continually discover that your prayers go unasnwered, then like Job, your faith in god will still be unchanged. Perhaps even if Zeus came down from Mount Olympus and started begetting children upon the women of the world once again, you would still have the same unchanged faith in god. I wonder exactly what could make you change your assessment of god. I have already stated that the percentages that I come up with are subservient to the facts, but how about god?

Again, you are confusing issues.

Your faith - your "strong trust" - is in your reason, the number crunches, what your eyes see, etc. But it is still faith, a strong trust.

Let me try a different example. In geometry, we learned of theorems and postulates. They are called such because although they have been found to work in every situation, they can't actually be proven (only when they are solidly proven are they called "laws.") What would happen if some day someone works out an equation where the very trusted theorem doesn't work? What happens to the theorem then? Does that make all the other times the theorem worked invalid - even though it was literally every other time that it worked?

Let me try another example. In the movie Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Indiana had to take a "step of faith" to walk across the very deep chasm. Although he could not see the bridge that was there, all his senses telling him that if he stepped forward he would fall to his death, he took a step forward anyway, with his only "strong trust" being that the clue he was following promised him safe travel across - if he was interpreting the clue correctly. (Again, his "step of faith" had nothing to do with "faith in God," but it was an act of faith in the clue he was given and in his ability to interpret that clue correctly.)

Come to think of it, science involves the risk that the evidence found has been interpreted correctly. A simple study of scientific history shows that the evidence has often been misinterpreted. While you can argue back that the evidence eventually does become interpreted correctly, I can ask back how long does "eventually" take? And how do you truly know that the interpretation is 100% correct? How often to new discoveries completely change everything we thought we knew? (Reference: Pluto is a planet - haha.)

I could go on about "faith" in the medical field, in doctors making a correct diagnosis, in the medication given you will cure you and not harm you, etc.

This is all that faith is. Sure, Christians apply that term to describe our belief in God. But that is not the only way faith is applied in the human existence. That is my point. We all have faith - in something. Whether the source is deserves such trust or not is an entirely different matter.

[nebula]

Uh, there could have been a movement in the ancient world. An article on it you might like is here

If a million people were wandering around the middle east for 40 years, you'd expect the entire region to have been stripped bare of everything in a very quick timeframe. I believe there is some evidence of a migration at about the supposed time of the exodus, but it's of a far smaller nature than the bible indicates (it was probably just Moses and a couple hundred of his mates getting kicked out for the whole baby-killing thing).

This is all off-topic, of course -

But here is something for you to read about -

http://www.biblediscoveries.com/holyplaces1.html

[nebula]

... you can also call me "Miss" if you like.

My apologies -

You don't have a gender set in your profile.

Look, this is what my dicrionary has to say about the matter (I'm assuming the Oxford dictionary is an accurate enough reference for you):

faith n.

1. Complete trust or confidence

2. firm belief, esp without logical proof.

3. a. a system of religious belief (the Christian faith) b. belief in religious doctrines. c. spiritual apprehenseion of divine truth apart from proof. d. things believed or to be believed.

4. duty or commitment to fufil a trust, promise etc (keep faith)

5. (attrib.) concerned with a supposed ability to cure by faith rather than treatment (faith-healing)

You can't discuss the word faith without recognising that in different contexts, it could refer to meaning 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5. If I say that I have faith in someone, I am referring to meaning 1 - the one that doesn't deny logical proof. If you say that you have faith in God, you are referring to meanings 2 or 3.

But that is my point.

"Faith" is not just a religious term.

If you have "complete trust or confidence" in the scientific method (meaning #1 by the Oxford dictionary), do you not have "faith" in it?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Nope, don't edit it, I was just curious.

Children did die in that plague. Every firstborn did including the livestock of the Egyptians. This would have further blighted an agrarian society's economy.

Peace,

Dave

Yeah. I never quite got what God had against the cattle of Egypt. The cattle just about got hit with more plagues than the humans.

Grace to you,

The Plagues that God put upon the Egyptians had to do with the gods that they worshipped. Which often were in the form of the creation not the Creator. God was not mean or hateful to cattle. Rather He was openly mocking the Egyptians deity's and their lack of ability to deliver the Egyptians.

It had a dual purpose, to further harden the hearts of their leaders and false Prophets. While openly showing their people who God really was. He was and is the God of Israel. He is also Merciful and ultimately desired to Save those very same Egyptians who were deceived. He was showing them evidence that He was God and the Creator and that only He had the power to Deliver and to Save.

If you go a little further into the Scriptures you will see the dual effect that this open show had. The Israelites arrive at Jericho and someone testify's to the Truth. A Prostitute, in fact, who actually get's Saved because of this Testimony adding her Faith to that of God and then is added to the Great Roll Call of Faith in heaven.

Jos

[nebula]

You could say that, but my point is that I wouldn't equate it to religious faith:

I never tried to.

if the scientific method became asynchronous with reality, then I would abandon it as a useful tool. Thus, I guess you'd say that my "faith" in the scientific method, or any scientific theory is less than your "faith" in god, because I have set certain standards that it must keep in order for me to maintian that "faith". I do the same with anything or anyone else that I have "faith" in. My "faith" is conditional.

Everyone has to be grounded in something, eh? Else you are just a dandelion seed floating in the wind.

But do you have a "strong trust" in your standards then?

You can't confuse it with your "faith" in god,

I never tried to.

which (I am assuming) is unconditional - God does not have to meet any standards in order for you to have "faith" in him.

Do you mean faith in His existence, or faith in His ways?

Just because God doesn't answer prayers like a genie in a bottle grants wishes does not negate His existence, nor His love.

[nebula]

What's the point of the whole thread if you're not trying to equate the two then? The only reason I can think of to try to say that is if you then want to point at non-theists and say "But you say you have faith in things too, so you can't say that my faith is illogical," when in reality, a theist and a non-theist would be using two different meanings of the word.

If that was not your intention, I apologise, but that's how I interpreted it.

no, my point is that "faith" is something everyone has and uses. We may use it in different ways and you may prefer to call it something else, but faith is a normal way to operate.

Just because you disagree with what I have faith in and the way I use my faith doesn't mean faith has to be a "dirty" word - or a word to be afraid of, or not like, or shy away from - or however you would prefer to put it.

But do you have a "strong trust" in your standards then?

I have to make an assumption that the world will continue to be self-consistent, because doing otherwise would not be at all useful. It would be silly to make plans just in case the universal gravitational constant of the universe suddenly doubled tomorrow. The reason I don't is because I just assume it will be exactly the same as it's always been. I wouldn't necessarily call it "strong trust". Otherwise you might go around saying that I have "faith" in the fact that the sky is blue, and the fact that it will still be blue tomorrow (unless it's cloudy, but even then it's still blue on the other side). It's silly to assume that that will change, because it has a strong precedent of not changing.

I think you are putting the word "faith" in some kind of box - like faith can't have a grounding or reason behind it? Or faith is restricted to whether or not there is an all-powerful being or not?

Part of what I am trying to explain is that faith can and is utilized beyond the whole existence thing and can be as simple as why you chose to do one activity over another.

Do you mean faith in His existence, or faith in His ways?

Both, really.

If The Jade Emperor came down tomorrow and said that the only real gods were the gods of Chinese mythology, would you then lose your faith in God?

Ha-ha. That's like me asking you - if Jesus came riding in the clouds tomorrow, would you repent of your sins and worship Him?

And do you have any understanding of what God's plan is? And do you have faith that whatever happens is all a part of his plan, even though sometimes it seems to involve small children getting 3rd degree burns to 90% of their body in freak accidents?

One of the interesting lessons I have learned is that the majority of the Psalms are crying out to God in pain, asking Him, "Why?!" and mourning.

But I believe in a God who threw away His divinity to become a man and suffered pain, rejection, betrayal, slander, torture and a brutal death. How does one explain that?

I wish I had an answer for all the pain in the world. I wish I had an answer for those children you mentioned. But I do know that God can and has made good come out of bad. And I do know that those who run to Him for comfort are comforted.

In my own life, for example, about a year ago I was finally able to embrace all the pain I've been through - the pain that caused me to develop chronic depression early on in my life and suffer years and "shorter" moments (yeah, what's shorter than "years"? ) of major depressive episodes. When I voiced my thanks to God for the pain in my life (having come to understand how that pain had made me a better person in the end) and mean it truly - the depression was instantly broken. I could literally feel it! I never knew what it was to be happy on the inside before, and it feels wonderful!

I know you are calling my experience something other than what I am calling it, and giving credit to something else than what I'm giving it credit. But I know how I got there and what I have known and experienced.

So, no - my faith in God is not groundless. I have other reasons for believing in God, that is just one of them. . . like why I never killed myself when I desperately wanted to snuff out my existence - but that's another long story.

Anyway, sorry to get off track from the intent of this thread.

[nebula]

Just so long as you accept that my faith is based on past experience and is entirely conditional on whatever I have faith in keeping that faith, I have no problem with you using the word faith. I just find it to be an extremely loaded word. Sort of like using "propaganda" instead of "advertising".

Comparing faith - as one being better than the other - wasn't what I was after.

If The Jade Emperor came down tomorrow and said that the only real gods were the gods of Chinese mythology, would you then lose your faith in God?

Ha-ha. That's like me asking you - if Jesus came riding in the clouds tomorrow, would you repent of your sins and worship Him?

So yes, you would? Assuming he could convince me that he was Jesus, then why wouldn't I? (Well, ok - I might refuse on moral grounds, since I have certain issues with the way the whole hell thing is run, but I'd acknowledge that I was wrong about his existence.)

Hmm . . . I'm not sure you interpreted my answer correct. For your answer wasn't exactly "yes" to the variables of my question, was it?

So, no - my faith in God is not groundless. I have other reasons for believing in God, that is just one of them. . . like why I never killed myself when I desperately wanted to snuff out my existence - but that's another long story.

See, my reason for this would be to credit your own inner strength. From my point of view you're selling yourself short if you give God the credit. I'm quite impressed that you managed to get out of your depression if you were suffering from it for many years - I know how hard that can be (and the longer you are depressed for, the harder it gets) and it shows that you have great inner strength.

I knew you were going to answer this way. Look, I know what I was going through and what I am capable of. I can tell you with full assurity and conviction that there is no way that was me pulling myself out. I couldn't have broken that depression any more than I could snap apart a 5 inch thick chain. (That's what it felt like, a humongous chain over me that had been broken.) And those steps I mentioned, coming to see the value in my pain - I was guided through that by the Holy Spirit . . . it wasn't my own doing. There is no way I could have done that.

But of course, if you never felt the presence of the Lord, how could you understand?

[nebula]

It's just that this whole thread seems similar to me starting a thread titled "Falling - it's not just for people who trip over" and then talking about how you can fall in love, fall asleep and so on. It's seems kinda dumb.

Dumb enough for you to participate in?

When I see a "dumb" topic, I just ignore it. I think you are actually bothered by this.

Well, I'd believe in Christ, but I wouldn't necessarily worship him - belief and worship are two completely different things. After all, why would I actually want to hang out with someone who thought I was evil? That's not the kind of relationship I want to get into. Does that make sense to you?

But this was the parameters of my answer. Your asking me if I would believe in some other deity is like me asking you to worship Jesus. That's how strong I feel.

As for being evil, why not blame the Thief for his evil?

I don't see the point in crediting things on people that you have no proof exist in when there you can credit it on things that quite plainly exist. You already know that you exist, and you're perfectly capable of not killing yourself - in fact, most of the time it's actually easier to not kill yourself than it is to kill yourself. Even small children are perfectly capable of going around not killing themselves - it's that easy.

With all due respect, who are you to tell me what I have been through? What proof do you have that I am strong in my own power? And how can you tell me how easy it is to not kill myself - do you have any idea what it is like to live in such hopelessness and despair and pain that death is more desirable than life? That is no way to argue to me that God doesn't exist - discrediting what I have had to endure. All that tells me is that you don't have a clue. Please don't ever try to council anyone who is struggling with suicidal desires - council like that is like pouring lemon juice on a paper cut.

When I credit something that happens on something else, though, I can point to it, or (in the case of, say, light or electricity) explain how it works. I can even demonstrate it to people who don't believe. You can't do that with God.

I did explain, but you wouldn't hear it.

[tsth]

I am led to post this passage, as I believe it applies to you, Lusankya. It would be difficult for you to describe something that you have not tasted for yourself, wouldn't it?

Whereas nebula, has picked up the fork and eaten of It. She knows, the taste is "good".

Psalm 34:6 This poor man cried out, and the Lord heard him, And saved him out of all his troubles. 7 The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them. 8 Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good; Blessed is the man who trusts in Him! 9 Oh, fear the Lord, you His saints! There is no want to those who fear Him. 10 The young lions lack and suffer hunger; But those who seek the Lord shall not lack any good thing.

In His Love,

Suzanne