Please tell me... When is the Sabbath?

[Richard_yaash]

ALL of the LAW is applicable. All 613 of them. How many do you keep, only 10? Tsk tsk.

The 10 are only PART of the Mosaic Law. It's either all or nothing. You can't pick out 10 and say you've arrived. You must keep them all if going by your logic.

Hi Vickilynn,

I am not picking on you in this, and my sincere apologies to you or anyone else who may feel that I am.

As to 613, they are not all applicable to every person therefore this is a moot arguement and one that I have seen all to often.

[Vickilynn]

ALL of the LAW is applicable. All 613 of them. How many do you keep, only 10? Tsk tsk.

The 10 are only PART of the Mosaic Law. It's either all or nothing. You can't pick out 10 and say you've arrived. You must keep them all if going by your logic.

Hi Vickilynn,

I am not picking on you in this, and my sincere apologies to you or anyone else who may feel that I am.

As to 613, they are not all applicable to every person therefore this is a moot arguement and one that I have seen all to often.

Shalom Richard and WELCOME TO WORTHY!!!!!!!!

Please explain, by Scripture, your assertion. Please prove it by Scripture and not just saying it. We need to folloe G-d, not man. Thanks!

According to JemDude, Jesus was referring to the LAW when He said "If you love me, keep my commandments." The LAW is the LAW. And all of it applies to what JemDude stated. Please show me by Scrpipture why you disagree.

Just for the record, I observe the Sabbath on the 7th day, but I do not do so because of the Law as JemDude does. I observe because the Sabbath was instituted PRIOR to the Law when He created it in Genesis 2, before any Mosaiic Law. And I do not believe the Scriptures state that the Sabbath is a salvation issue, but one of conviction.

However, JemDude has stated that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin and effects someone's salvation and we must keep it because of the Law. I believe that is error because JemDude is taking 10 out of the 613 and exalting PART of the Law and ignoring others.

[JB Horn]

Jemdude jenwat3

I am not the one questioning that here. You are. You admit the Lord set aside the 7th day, but give arguments saying Saturday isn't the 7th day? You keep saying things like the work week, but that does not mean the 7th day is Sunday. You need to seriously think about what you do. In effect you are changing what God set aside and commands, in order to fit your way of thinking. You need to change your thinking to fit what God says to do.

The Jews have successfully preserved the 7th day Sabbath. Regardless of what part of the world they are in, they all keep the Sabbath on the same day. You don't see Jews in one part of the world keeping the Sabbath on one day and Jews in another part of the world keeping the Sabbath on another day. They all keep it on the same day regardless of what calendar is used in their home country.

The "six days shall you labour and do all your work" is another side of this commandment showing that we should be working most of the time and using our time productively, but it doesn't forbid vacations. After all, one might not have any work to do for a certain period of time.

God's commandment is based 6 days of labor and one day of rest not on some day assigned by man and his calendar which changes from across the world. As far as the Jews have successfully preserved the 7th day Sabbath, are these the same Jews that heard the prophets teachings of the coming Messiah? Well they sure got that right didn't they.

Sorry but the Sabbath means day of rest not Saturday. That day very well may be on a Saturday for some but for most it is not.

It is amazing how you can take some parts of the commandment literally and other just brush off because it doesn't fit your life style.

IHS

JB

[Richard_yaash]

Hi Everyone,

From my POV, I see within this thread mistakes in the understandings and beliefs on the part of those on both sides of the issue. Particularly those whom hold extreme POV's. Now, I am not condemning anyone, YHVH forbid that I should do so. I am a man whom has perhaps studied a little, I am also a man who since the loss of his wife and witnessing/dealing with these arguments over and over and over again has fallen away and been completely out of the Scriptures for over 4 years now. I am deeply saddened in the reading of this thread.

Since I have not seen it so far within this thread, I would like to introduce a question or two, and provide some food for thought. I am not interested in debate, condemnation or an "I am Right" discussion.

1) Who is grafted into whom?

_____________________________________________________

Food for thought: Compare Revelation 13:16 with Exodus 13:16.

In both verses, where are the 'marks/symbols/signs'?

What do/does the 'marks/symbols/signs' represent?

Further reading and consideration: Exodus 13:9, Deut 6:8, Deut 11:18

I have not checked these references as I am too lazy to go dig a Bible out right now. If I have given a bad reference, please feel free to let me know.

In Deuteronomy 6:8, to what specifically is being referred unto?

_______________________________________________________

I am sure that most of you are familar or have heard of a lobotomy. Now, this term can refer to any lobe, however to which lobe is it most generally associated with? What is the function of that lobe? What was the purpose of a lobotomy? Was or has a lobotomy ever been used as a means of control (ie: such as to limit a person ability to make decisions for themselves)?

How many of us here have ever heard the phrase "think before you act"? If you will, consider the phrase "think before you act" in connection with Deut 6:8.

And yes, I do realize that what I have written above is not in depth, nor does it address every question, nor every aspect. I am simply asking that perhaps some might consider it.

Lastly, I ask for only the sharing of thoughts. I would ask that no one tell anyone else they are "wrong". We are all at different places upon the path (or some not upon the path at all as is my case), we all have or at different levels of insight/knowledge. So please, let us share together in kindness, in gentleness.

Anyway, in kindness and the hope that I have not made a mistake in deciding to participate here,

Richard

Edited January 27, 2008 by Richard_yaash

[Richard_yaash]

ALL of the LAW is applicable. All 613 of them. How many do you keep, only 10? Tsk tsk.

The 10 are only PART of the Mosaic Law. It's either all or nothing. You can't pick out 10 and say you've arrived. You must keep them all if going by your logic.

As to 613, they are not all applicable to every person therefore this is a moot arguement and one that I have seen all to often.

Shalom Richard and WELCOME TO WORTHY!!!!!!!!

Thank you Vickilynn.

Please explain, by Scripture, your assertion. Please prove it by Scripture and not just saying it. We need to folloe G-d, not man. Thanks!

First point, if I may gently say as much, you are asking me to do what you have not done. You have not "by Scripture" proven that all 613 are applicable.

It is written that there is one who may not become ceremonially unclean for anyone, not even the death of his own mother and father. Does that apply to everyone?

According to JemDude, Jesus was referring to the LAW when He said "If you love me, keep my commandments." The LAW is the LAW. And all of it applies to what JemDude stated. Please show me by Scrpipture why you disagree.

Rather than to comply currently with your request. Please allow me to interject some food for thought:

Are there two commands?

What are those commands?

Where are they written?

Please, humor me by answering the above questions before addressing my opinion below. Perhaps, I should withhold my opinion until we have the opportunity to consider the above questions. However, I would like for you to know where I am headed with this.

IMO: The 2 simply sum up the ten. All the rest of the Law, simply explains how to do so. Oversimplified? YES!!!

Just for the record, I observe the Sabbath on the 7th day, but I do not do so because of the Law as JemDude does. I observe because the Sabbath was instituted PRIOR to the Law when He created it in Genesis 2, before any Mosaiic Law. And I do not believe the Scriptures state that the Sabbath is a salvation issue, but one of conviction.

I also formerly observed shabat. As well as every other applicable law/command/statute unto the best of my knowledge and ability. It was not hard, in fact it was easy and life was truly joyful. The only complication(s), was the 'world's' standard methods are somewhat contradictory to this lifestyle. Beyond that, the sorrow that came from seeing and addressing such issues as this over and over and over, the petty arguments and name calling. After the death of my wife, I had not the strength to deal with it. I am not the man I once was. I no longer have the patience and the perserverance to gently speak with others. Even here in my reply unto you, my deep, heartfelt and most sincere apologies, for I am completely unable to hold such discussions as this in my former manner. Those who knew me in my day, they have all seen and commented upon my diminished capabilities in this regard.

I do understand why you observe shabat. The reasoning behind such seems to fall within what I used to understand as the "Noahide" law or covenant theory(ies). Assuming that your reasoning is correct, which I do agree with, YHVH also saw fit to repeat it within the "Mosaic" law. For the record, I do not care for terms such as "Noahide/Mosaic".

I agree with you it is a matter of conviction. I would also point out Hebrews chapter 4, in particular verse 9, which not only agrees with, but supports your view to some degree.

However, JemDude has stated that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin and effects someone's salvation and we must keep it because of the Law. I believe that is error because JemDude is taking 10 out of the 613 and exalting PART of the Law and ignoring others.

Let's simplify this if we can:

According to 1 John 3, what is "sin"?

How do we know what "sin" is?

Are there different degrees of "sin"? (cf 1 John 5)

I fully understand the viewpoints held by everyone I have seen within this thread. In my opinion, everyone has presented points of merit.

I understand your POV with regard to the 10 vs. 613 and as I have already laid an extremely oversimplied opinion/POV, I will not take this much further here until we have the opportunity to further discuss and consider each others POV.

Further: Without knowledge, can one sin? IOW: Apart from knowledge of what sin is, can one sin? (cf Romans 3:20 if memory serves)

Alright, so much for simplicity, my apologies. IMO: We are each held accountable according to the knowledge we are given. Thus, perhaps I am in the 'deep stuff' upon that day. However, that is the choice(s) I have made in life at this point.

With regard to shabat: I know of people who in their day had never even heard of "saturday" as being shabat, they went to their death fully believing that "sunday" was the day of rest. Will they be judged? I do not know. Was it sin to them? I do not know. I will simply trust our Father and His Son to make that determination, for only they can judge in righteousness IMO.

As it was written (which someone here quoted and I am paraphrasing):Whoever shall break the least and teach others to do so... etc shall be called least IN the kingdom. This could imply that even though they do not practice/teach others that they do in fact reach the kingdom. Thus, we have no right to judge them, for all that we are really possibly doing IMO is heaping judgment upon ourselves according to Matthew 7, Mark 4 and Luke 6 (Sorry, I do not remember the verse numbers).

OTOH: It could imply, though I do not believe that it does. That they shalled be simply "called" (ie as in spoken of) as least in the kingdom. IOW: They are spoken of within the kingdom as least. There is possible precedence for such a belief, however it is only possible, not probable, nor does it fully hold up under scrutiny IMO.

I think we should all keep in mind 'James' within this thread. I apply this to myself first and foremost, so please do not think that I am applying it to you or anyone else.

If we judge others (especially according to the law [i say this tenatively and at great risk of it being misunderstood]) do we not also stand in judgment of the law and therefore are not keeping it? (cf James 4)

That question being asked, if we are not keeping it, are we in "sin"? If yes, then as James writes, are we not also guilty of breaking the whole of the Law?

Yes, now I am being overly complicated. My point being, let us each please be careful to be gentle with each other, to remember that not one of us is perfect. And yes, I am as guilty as anyone here, perhaps moreso.

I can see that if I continue this, I am perhaps going to have to pull out a Bible <grin>. The memory is not what it used to be.

In His love,

Richard

[Richard_yaash]

God also spoke that all males should be circumcised; this was and is kept by the Jewish people then and now. When and where was this command changed? For those who are not circumcised are they not also going directly against God?

Why and to whom was circumcision given?

Was there a need to be circumcised? If yes, what?

Paul wrote something to the effect of remaining in the state in which one was called. At that point in time, IMO: The only reason for a physical circumcision, would have been for a 'foreign' male to partake of the passover. In Paul's time and remaining until now, IMO: Circumcision is still necessary and required. Before anyone jumps though, allow me to say; "of the heart". For without such a circumcision, no one may be saved IMO.

As to the 'male' aspect of circumcision, it is my opinion, that the male was as the leader and responsible party. (cf Num 30) If a daughter or wife made a vow, the father/husband could annul that vow. If he held his peace, the vow stood.

Circumcision, as a physical aspect, was just that. It was not required of the 'foreigner' in general. It was only required of a 'foreigner' in order to partake of Pesach/Paschal/Passover.

There is no place on this earth in which to sacrifice the passover currently, therefore no need for a 'physical' circumcision.

Now, circumcision as a 'spiritual' aspect. That is in effect. For no one may partake of the Pesach/Paschal/Passover Lamb (cf 1 Cor 5:7) without undertaking/going a 'spiritual' circumcision of the heart.

[JB Horn]

Your argument is a ridiculous one. The Sabbath is the day that is commonly known today as Saturday. It is not based on a man-made calendar. It is based on the same 7th day of the week that has been kept since creation week.

I would argue that the Sabbath is more 'commonly known today as' Sunday. But the truth is it is the day after six days of labour.

For six days you shall labour and do all your work.

But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work

[Richard_yaash]

Greetings Richard and welcome to Worthy.

Thank you Jemdude. It is nice to meet you and the others here as well.

I understand you not wanting to get involved in the debate. This is something we have been debating about for the past few days now.

It has been debated so many times, I have seen such hatred over it, so much division over it. I still carry more sorrow over it than seems bearable at times. My wish, is that we could all share, if only a little, and that through sharing we might each learn from one another. But alas, it always seems to go the wrong way.

I do not know what lobotomy is though.

When the lobotomy was first "invented", for lack of a better way to put it right now, it was used to sever the frontal lobe of the brain. It was used upon the "mentally ill", as well as upon people who were unruly or outspoken. Perhaps you might find the movie "Francis" (I think that is the title) with Jessica Lange of interest.

Anyway, what a frontal lobotomy affectively did, was to severe the frontal lobe of the brain and thereby remove the "patients" ability to think/reason/make decisions for themselves. They in affect became 'programmable' robots that would do as they were told.

It is with the frontal lobe, that we are able to think/reason/make decisions. Our actions, follow from that which we think about.

So, if we take this and consider Deuteronomy 6:8 in particular, what do we have?

In Deuteronomy 5, we have just had something laid out for us. In affect, we are to place this where?

We are to (paraphrasing): Bind them upon our foreheads: IOW; think about them. However more than that. To bind: To me, it says we should not only think about them, but we should remember them. Even further, we should so ingrain them within our minds, that our thoughts, from which our actions proceed, are ever inline with them.

They are to be as signs/symbols upon our hands. Considering the above, this is relatively simplistic IMO. Our actions are physical signs/symbols of what we believe, of what we think about, and going a step further, even of the condition of our hearts.

I do fully understand your POV and position in this Jemdude. Be blessed achi (my brother), and be merciful.

In His love,

Richard

Edited January 27, 2008 by Richard_yaash

[Vickilynn]

And as I said before, Jesus mentions nothing about homosexuality, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taught against.

Shalom Jemdude,

However, these sins ARE taught against in the NT, so your argument is invalid.

I am responding to YOUR false statement that Jesus was referring to the LAW when He spoke of His commandments. If thay were true, you'd still be sacrificing bulls and goats. So, even though the4 Sabbath is a good thing to observe, you have wrongly turned it into a LAw command and an issue of salvation, which it is not.

Also, Neither the OT nor the NT mention any commandment to keep Sunday.

Straw Man. Stick to the topic of the Sabbath please.

[Vickilynn]

ALL of the LAW is applicable. All 613 of them. How many do you keep, only 10? Tsk tsk.

The 10 are only PART of the Mosaic Law. It's either all or nothing. You can't pick out 10 and say you've arrived. You must keep them all if going by your logic.

As to 613, they are not all applicable to every person therefore this is a moot arguement and one that I have seen all to often.

Shalom Richard and WELCOME TO WORTHY!!!!!!!!

Thank you Vickilynn.

Please explain, by Scripture, your assertion. Please prove it by Scripture and not just saying it. We need to follow G-d, not man. Thanks!

First point, if I may gently say as much, you are asking me to do what you have not done. You have not "by Scripture" proven that all 613 are applicable.

Shalom Richard,

I'll be happy to.

James 2:

10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

And, please keep in ind that I am NOT advocating that we need to keep the whole Law, but I am refuting JamDude's claim that the Sabbath is a salvation issue based on the Law. My response is James 2. We either keep it ALL, or we are guilty of it all.

So, your responses really don't apply to what I'm saying since I'm not advocating keeping the Law - JemDude is.

Rather than to comply currently with your request. Please allow me to interject some food for thought..

I asked you for some responses Scripturally, why your statement that disagrees with me and you did not oblige me, yet went down a rabbit trail.

Let's please stick to the topic of the Sabbath and my responses to JemDude's accusations of salvationo relating to keeping the Sabbath for reasons of the Law.

I really don't wish to go down rabbit trails, I hope you understand.

According to JemDude, Jesus was referring to the LAW when He said "If you love me, keep my commandments." The LAW is the LAW. And all of it applies to what JemDude stated. Please show me by Scripture why you disagree.

Rather than to comply currently with your request. Please allow me to interject some food for thought:

Please, humor me by answering the above questions before addressing my opinion below. Perhaps, I should withhold my opinion until we have the opportunity to consider the above questions. However, I would like for you to know where I am headed with this.

No thank you, I respectfully refuse because I really do not wish to play games. I asked you for your Scriptural response, not 20 questions that do not even relate to my post. I believe this is derailing the conversation and it's more important to stay on topic.

Please post your position and your Scriptural support for it if we have anything to discuss. Thank you.

IMO: The 2 simply sum up the ten. All the rest of the Law, simply explains how to do so. Oversimplified? YES!!!

Then you actually disagree with JemDude, not me. Which is why I didn't want to get into this off-topic.

I also formerly observed shabat. As well as every other applicable law/command/statute unto the best of my knowledge and ability. It was not hard, in fact it was easy and life was truly joyful. The only complication(s), was the 'world's' standard methods are somewhat contradictory to this lifestyle. Beyond that, the sorrow that came from seeing and addressing such issues as this over and over and over, the petty arguments and name calling. After the death of my wife, I had not the strength to deal with it. I am not the man I once was. I no longer have the patience and the perserverance to gently speak with others. Even here in my reply unto you, my deep, heartfelt and most sincere apologies, for I am completely unable to hold such discussions as this in my former manner. Those who knew me in my day, they have all seen and commented upon my diminished capabilities in this regard.

I do understand why you observe shabat. The reasoning behind such seems to fall within what I used to understand as the "Noahide" law or covenant theory(ies). Assuming that your reasoning is correct, which I do agree with, YHVH also saw fit to repeat it within the "Mosaic" law. For the record, I do not care for terms such as "Noahide/Mosaic".

No, not at all. I am sorry, but you are mistaken on this point. Why do you believe you know why I observe Shabbat without asking me?

I believe even though you have said you've read the thread, that you are not seeing the 2 sides clearly. The ONLY one who is judging, is JemDude, by saying that those who do not keep the Sabbath will not be saved. There are others, such as myself, who are refuting this Scripturally.

Welcome to the fray Brother! I am curious, as you an SDA as well?