trinity

[other one]

i was resontly asked how to explane how God and Jesus are one ,but could not ! please help with the proper methed of going about this

My personal thoughts on the subject:

QUOTE

Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

KJV

QUOTE

John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

KJV

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.

Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.

So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.

Looking further:

QUOTE

John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

KJV

John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

KJV

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning.

It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.

Further:

QUOTE

Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

KJV

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.

Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE

John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

KJV

QUOTE

John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

KJV

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

QUOTE

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

KJV

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.

I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

KJV

[jehovah Nissi]

i was resontly asked how to explane how God and Jesus are one ,but could not ! please help with the proper methed of going about this

The best way of answering this is that God and Jesus are one FAMILY, not one being. A family can be one, but still have more than one member.

Amen Jen...this is the best way to explain it...when you get conected into a good church, you are one family, one church...everyone individually has their roll to play though

One God...three persons

[HAZARD]

Sorry, I accidently double posted.

[HAZARD]

i was resontly asked how to explane how God and Jesus are one ,but could not ! please help with the proper methed of going about this

____________________________________________________________

Good question and one that is much missunderstood.

The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9). The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God" in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that Jesus took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and that He was resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit; "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" John 4:24.] in Heaven and be "one" in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are "one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

For those who state that there is only one God, read these Scriptures and believe that the Father is OVER the Word, John 1:1, who became Jesus and the Word obeyed the Father and as Jesus, He obeys the Father; "And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's" (1 Cor. 3:23), and "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3).

What was Jesus asking the Father when He prayed this prayer to the Father; Did He ask hat the Father to put all His disciples inside one body? Never in a million years did Jesus even think this. He wanted the Father to make them "one" in unity as He and the Father are.

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me" (John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers "one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form "one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as these plain simple Scriptures state.

Jesus said;

"And the Father Himself, [one person] which hath sent me [another person, hath born WITNESS OF ME. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape (JOhn 5:37). How can this Scripture be true if they are "ONE" as fundamental Christianity teaches?

Jesus instructs us to "Search the Scriptures; for in the ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they which testify of me" (John 5:39). How can we pray to a God if we do not know who He is? Jesus said, "Ask me nothing. Verily verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will give it you"(John 16:23). The Father never refuses Jesus anything, so when we ask the Father in the Name of Jesus, to the Father its like Jesus asking the Father Himself. They are two separate individual self existant beings, sitting beside each other in Heaven. This is as clear and as simple to believe as any other doctrin in the Bible. Our plain common sense tells us that one person cannot sit beside himself, and God would not expect us to believe He sits beside Himself in two types of bodies, constantly transforming Himself at will, asking Himself questions and invoking prayers in His Jesus Name, and then answering them to His Jesus self as the Father. To believe this theory of Satan, which is continued by men is plain madness.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says, not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than He has revealed Himself to be.

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body, soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot be supported Scripturally.

The Scriptures quoted above prove that Jesus is one of the three separate and distinct Spirit Beings making the Deity or Godhead. In the beginning, up until about two thousand years ago the second person [The Word] had the same kind of Spirit body, personal soul, and spirit that the Father and the Holy Spirit still have. At that time one of the three divine persons of the Trinity took human form to redeem man (John 1:14).

The Person of the Godhead we now know as Jesus Christ, before becoming man (John 1:1), had no beginning and existed eternally with the Father; " . . . and the Word was with God . . . " John speaks of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father from all eternity (John 1:1-5).

Jesus Himself tells us that HE EXISTED BEFORE Abraham and BEFORE the World was created (John 8:58, "JESUS HIMSELF said unto them, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM." Also, "And now, O Father, glorify thou ME with thine own self with the glory WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS" John 17:5). God the Father does not condone self glorification, or self adulation. The Father wasn't asking Himself for Glory? God the Father was asked by Jesus to RESTORE the Glory Jesus had in the beginning when He was with God, as the WORD. The glory He divested Himself of when He became flesh and blood-a man (John 1:14). The Glory what has been restored to Him as asked by the Father; Note Jesus's words "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth" (Matt. 28:18).

And Jesus now sits at GODS THE FATHER'S RIGHT HAND in His Glorified FLESH AND BONE BODY in Heaven (Luke 22:69; Mark 16:19; Hebrews 1:3). The Father HAS A SPIRIT BODY! "God IS A SPIRIT and must be worshiped in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).This scripture does not say God is spirit, it plainly says God IS A SPIRIT!

Paul speaks of Jesus as existing before all things, and before He became man, as the Word He created and upheld all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, and verse in verse 8, God the Father Himself calls His own Son God, "But unto the Son HE SAITH, Thy throne O God is forever and ever: a septre of righteousness is the septer of thy Kingdom.

God the Father created all things BY HIM; And to make ALL MEN see what is the fellowship of the mystery, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HAD BEEN HID IN GOD, who created all things by JESUS CHRIST" (Eph 3:9), and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:2).

These plain Scriptures cannot be ignored. Water freezing when cooled, recondensing back to water when warmed and boiling when hot still returns to and remains water. This has noting to do with God. To compare God with a substance of His own creation is insulting Him even if it is done in ignorance.

When the "Word" who was with "God" became FLESH AND BONES and dwelt among us (John 1:14), He ramained FLESH AND BONE (Luke 24:39), and He will remain so for ALL ETERNITY (Zech: 13:6). He is FLESH AND BONE, The Father is Spirit, they now sit beside each other on thrones in Heaven, not inside each other. They are "ONE" for sure, "in unity" not omnibody..

[Rick-Parker]

That long and detailed a response is great, but it doesn't help someone explain the Trinity to a seeker. Unless I mistaken in my assumption (I know - to assume makes an as_ out of u n me LOL) that the OP is looking for that type of relatively short answer. I myself cannot adequatly explain it any better than the next Christian, so I stop trying; believing that I will fully understand the complexity of our Father when I get home.

[HAZARD]

That long and detailed a response is great, but it doesn't help someone explain the Trinity to a seeker. Unless I mistaken in my assumption (I know - to assume makes an as_ out of u n me LOL) that the OP is looking for that type of relatively short answer. I myself cannot adequatly explain it any better than the next Christian, so I stop trying; believing that I will fully understand the complexity of our Father when I get home.

Whilst every man may not totally understand the God of our fathers, the creator of the entire universe, and many may not even want to, a God who could not make Himself understood to those He created would be no God at all. There are over 500 Scriptures that I have found that clearly shows who God is, what He does, how He does things, and what His plans for men are since the creation of the world to its final restitution. Its realy not that hard.

[Rick-Parker]

That long and detailed a response is great, but it doesn't help someone explain the Trinity to a seeker. Unless I mistaken in my assumption (I know - to assume makes an as_ out of u n me LOL) that the OP is looking for that type of relatively short answer. I myself cannot adequatly explain it any better than the next Christian, so I stop trying; believing that I will fully understand the complexity of our Father when I get home.

Whilst every man may not totally understand the God of our fathers, the creator of the entire universe, and many may not even want to, a God who could not make Himself understood to those He created would be no God at all. There are over 500 Scriptures that I have found that clearly shows who God is, what He does, how He does things, and what His plans for men are since the creation of the world to its final restitution. Its realy not that hard.

No one, not even you, can know all there is to know about God. Since it is easy for you, please explain the Trinity in as few words as you can and in such a way as everyone will agree with you. Thanks.

Rick

[HAZARD]

That long and detailed a response is great, but it doesn't help someone explain the Trinity to a seeker. Unless I mistaken in my assumption (I know - to assume makes an as_ out of u n me LOL) that the OP is looking for that type of relatively short answer. I myself cannot adequatly explain it any better than the next Christian, so I stop trying; believing that I will fully understand the complexity of our Father when I get home.

Whilst every man may not totally understand the God of our fathers, the creator of the entire universe, and many may not even want to, a God who could not make Himself understood to those He created would be no God at all. There are over 500 Scriptures that I have found that clearly shows who God is, what He does, how He does things, and what His plans for men are since the creation of the world to its final restitution. Its realy not that hard.

No one, not even you, can know all there is to know about God. Since it is easy for you, please explain the Trinity in as few words as you can and in such a way as everyone will agree with you. Thanks.

Rick

Hi Rick.

No one can possibly totally and compleatly understand God, just as some of my closest friends do not totally know and understand everything about me. But they do know what I have revealed to them about myself, and we can just as easily know all of what God has revealed about Himself from the Bible.

For example, just a small quote from my long winded post above, which by the way could have been three times longer had I added all that is taught in the Scripture.

"God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, are one (unified) Godhead or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God" (Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures "They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one" (Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27; 49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4; ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which member of the Godhead was the Word with, "in the beginning" in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ." Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven. Whilst on the Earth, Jesus knew where the Father was. He prayed many time to His Father, "In Heaven." And he certainly never prayed to Himself?

You can read the rest for yourself.

Haz.

[Rick-Parker]

You're comparing apples and oranges. As a Christians, I am very well informed of God's plan for me (us). That's the apple your talking about. Fully knowing all there is to know about God (and His character) is impossible while we are here in these bodies. That is the orange I'm talking about. Heck, we are made in His image but we don't even know what he looks like.

The OP is about how to explain the Trinity to someone. The long and informative explanation that you gave was excellent; yet not short enough to keep the attention of a seeker. So, I ask you if you can provide such in a manner that everyone will read, understand and agree with?

Edited February 1, 2008 by Brandon's Popo

[Rick-Parker]

Dr. Charles Stanley had this to say about the Trinity and I agree 100%:

While the term Trinity isn