Denominations

[jackie d]

Luk 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.

Luk 12:52 "For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three.

and which house is Christ referring too? is it only individual family units? or could it be that Christ was speaking of ALL "houses"?

[eric]

I don't believe anyone in this thread has said that denominations are good, OneLight, but they are to be tolerated, as long as the basic truths of the gospel aren't eroded. as I quoted from acts 4:12 as one example. There are new breeds, who call themselve christian pastors thay are saying there are other ways of obtaining eternal life, which is for another thread at another time.

Because of vision, hearing and other reasons we (my wife and self) haven't attended any church now for several years. However we have friends from various denoms, with whom we don't see eye to eye with in certain areas of understanding of the word, so when we do meet we don't broach the subject, and that way we maintain a loving christian family relationship.

Several doctrines have been mentioned, such as whether or not baptism is a requisite for salvation,on this board, as an example. Several will say yes and the same amount will say no. Who on this board, has the authority to say that I am wrong in my belief, when one side must be wrong, because both side can't be right Then out come all kinds of bible verses, that are countered by all kinds of verses from the other side which are all strung together to try and drive the point home. Who on this board can give scriptual evidence that Calvin is 100% correct in his interpretation? No one that I know of, so who is going to settle the dispute once and for all. There have always been different denoms and there always will be.

Denominations at least keep people in the word and teaches them to be bereans. And that can't be bad. I for one don't believe that a christian should befriend and associate with a non believer, just for friendship sake, and I've been shot down from all angles, but it won't affect my faith in Lord.

[Guest shiloh357]

In the thread about the Sabbath, The 2nd Commandment, Does it have to be obeyed?, there were accusation of false teachings and cult-like doctrines from the SDA doctrines. The cult-like doctrine statement in the thread still exist, but the end of the thread is missing. The MODS leave a reason why it is being closed and that is also missing. This removed the statements about false teaching. In another thread that was closed, What is the true role of the New Testament?, Does it build on or pretty much replaces the Old Tastement? there was so much infighting going on that the MODS had to heavily edit the thread. Then there was another thread that disappeared all together about the Catholic church worshiping idols. Even though all points were valid, and I agree with them, this only supports the fact that there is division among those who have salvation through Jesus. It is their doctrines that bring the division. I see those who accept Jesus as their savior as part of the Body of Christ. That would include many from these so called cults. It is their denominational doctrines that lead them astray, not their belief in Christ.

That is less an example of doctrinal division, and more of an example of the usual problems on this board that occur when various personalities collide. Genuine division stems from pride, bitterness, stubbornness, anger, dishonesty and other such things. It is not the doctrines that bring division. It is how human beings communicate those doctrines and how they relate to others who hold different doctrines that end up causing all of the strife and division.

That having been said, I need to qualify my position by pointing out that there is a time when doctrinal division isn necessary. When someone professing Christ rejects basic fundamentals of the faith such as the Deity of Jesus, and basic biblical teachings on the essential nature of God and so forth. There are times when genuine doctrinal "division" is necessary in standing for the truth.

As for these cults... One thing I have learned is that the most successful and pernicious of all cults, are the ones who use the Bible. They wear a cloak of Christian fundamentalism on the exterior. Their public face is one where they are very proficient at using "Christianese" to appear to most folks as legitimate Christianity. It is when you dig a little deeper into their theology that you find out how they really believe salvation is attained. That is why I don't feel any obligation to accept them as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

If those who continuously sought the truth taught to us by the Holy Spirit changed according to what the Spirit taught them, then unity would be at hand.

The problem is that everyone is alreadly claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit to believe as they believe on any given subject, but they both disagree over how a particular passage should be understood, and/or the correctness of a particular doctrine. When you have two people, each believing their view is given to them by the Holy Spirit, both have their own arsenal of Scriptural support to back up their position, what is the standard against which we measure their claims to see which one is legitmate and who determines what that standard will be Anyone can say "the Holy Spirit told me..." I have seen some really serious errors and wacky ideas get blamed on the Holy Spirit. "The Holy Spirit toldl me..." is tactic I have seen used by certain people to pull the rug out from under the feet of anyone who disagrees with them.

Those who are unwilling to be molded by the truth are not seeking truth in the first place. They seek to put their conscience to ease by placing their beliefs in doctrines made by man.

That is a completely subjective argument, though.

I think I have said this before, but I will say it again. When it comes to "men's teachings" or "men's doctrines" etc., I tend to notice that some people (not you, Onelight) seem to get a bit hypocritical about that. They claim to reject "the teachings of man" and only follow the Holy Spirit. Yet these same people expect their views to be recognized as accepted as truth. These "men" who don't "listen to the teaching of men" want other men to listen and hopefully agree with, their teaching. They want others to do what they claim is a sin for themselves. I see it all the time on this board.

Do you know how "the doctrines/teachings of men" is usually defined, especially here on Worthy Boards? They are defined as, "anything you say that I disagree with." The "men's teachings/doctrines" remarks are just another tactic employed to discredit the views of an opponent. If I disagree with you, it is just so much easier for me to stick my nose in the air and declare that, "you are just spreading the 'doctines of men,' but I am listening to the Holy Spirit." It is easier fo me to fall back on that crutch than it is for me to entertain the possibility that your views might have some merit. There are people who are currently posting on this board who see any disagreement with their point of view on peripheral issues as a rejection of the Bible itself.

Right now, we see through a glass darkly as Paul would say. While we seek to be led by the Holy Spirit, none of us corner the market on what is or is not true. Our understanding of the Bible is darkened in many areas, and for that reason, we are never going to get to that perfect place in this life where there is no difference of opinion.

Division comes when people are unwilling to work together because of their differences. The differences are not the problem. The problem at that point is pride. That is where the division occurs. I can easily fellowship with those who don't see eye to eye with me on a whole host of issues. Disagreement is not division. Diversity is not division. Neither of those are the root of the problem.

[Smalcald]

I would agree.

I hope that we are all firmly convinced in our hearts and mind that how we worship and what we believe is true doctrine is solely based in Scripture and is the truth.

But as Jackie has said we follow Christ first and we should all identify with Him first and foremost, I know I do, but I also believe that the congregation I belong to preaches and teaches sound doctrine which I believe is truth and I believe is what Christ wants for all Christians.

The drifts you mentioned are not minor issues of style but actually serious differences in doctrine and will not be mended by human beings. So, are we to fight about these truths that we hold so dear? I guess we could, what is the outcome of this boards debates on Baptism, communion, once saved always saved, the rapture, pre-tribulation or post, and so forth, what has been the outcome of those debates? I don't see much progress being made one way or the other frankly. Maybe we should we look for what we have in common while respecting our differences? The Roman Catholic Church for example could make an argument that the great falling away indeed did happen when us Protestants revolted and went against some of their teachings. Prior to that time most of Christianity was only divided into two groups the Eastern and Roman Churches. So who is causing these divisions you are concerned about, the fact is we are, if we wanted unity we would all return to the RCC. To me division is worth the cost of lack of unity.

What annoys me is the idea that worshipping alone or with a small group somehow is LESS divisive than worshipping with a larger group, in fact the inverse is true.

Fight? No, but allow the Holy Spirit to speak the truth in each of us that follow Him. This alone is the only way to draw us back together. This must be done from the inside out, not the outside in. No human can ever do this. It has to be from God Himself.

Do you really think that these boards are a real reflection to what Christ can and will do? Even though we are Christians, we have been beating our different denominational drums all along. The division started when Constantine, who worshiped the sun god Sol, took over the church, closing the knowledge to every Christian alive at that time by destroying every book that had been written, and found, (including books written by pagan authors) by burning them, because they revealed a lot about the doctrines and practices of the Apostolic church. They even executed many Christians, and their history, so that the next generation of believers would have no idea what their parents believed in or how they worshiped. (Take away their means to remember, the books, and the knowledge will fade away.) He was able to take control by telling them that he is the leader of the church and the only one capable of understanding the message God had for them, making us puppets for their cause in the process. He declared himself a man from God, Pope Constantine.

The falling away, which I believe you know, is for the last days. Do you believe that we are in the last days? This is a serious matter. Reread 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, if any have doubt. The lack of unity has brought the lie to the surface, but even though we know what the lie is, we have not been willing to bring forth the true light and unite those who believe the truth as taught to us by His Spirit. He can not lie and we all need to put away the flesh and live in the spirit in order to hear His words. What we have in common, the basics of our faith in Christ, is the foundation of what God can build on. We should hold to this foundation and then look at what is left. What is left is the bases of the division itself. Seeking the truth, given to us by His Spirit, is the beginning of healing. To continue being divided is, in fact, allowing Satan to have his way in the Body of Christ. As I mentioned before, a house divided against itself will not stand. (Matthew 12:25, Mark 3:25 and Luke 11:17) This should answer your concerns about being divisive, for if we seek the real truth, we will in fact worship as one, all in one accord as in Acts 1 and 2, the Day of Pentecost.

Why is disagreeing over what amounts to peripheral issues seen as "division?" I don't see the division in the "challenging" threads as you call them, because I have seen the same believers who may vigorously disagree on a particluar issue, come together in praying for a particular need of a another person. I have seem the same people who are polar opposites on the KJV only issue, stand shoulder to shoulder against pornography, abortion, and other issues that attack the core of our faith as Christians.

I have seen churches from various demoninations in my town come together for various events that were meant to help the homeless others less fortunate.

If it were "division," as you call it, then I would expect to see Christians just leaving each other out in the cold on these boards, but I see them in the prayer forums praying for one another and this in spite of their differing views on other topics.

Like I said, "unity" is not the product of everyone believing the exact same thing, and never having a differing opinion on what the Bible means on a paticular issue. Unity is achieved when we can come together in spite of our difference and make an impact on greater society for the Kingdom of God.

Let me ask you this... How serious would you be about everyone believing the same things? What would you say if you, in the name of "unity," were expected to sacrifice some beliefs you hold dear to, for the sake of the greater good of the collective? Everyone who calls for us to have NO differences in doctrine, have not really thought out just exactly which doctrine EVERYONE should follow, and just who has to sacrifice which paritcular beliefs and conform to the beliefs of the whole, whether they truly believe those things or not. Do you think the Calvinists will give up Predestination? Do you see th Pentacostals willing to lay speaking in tongues on the chopping block?

That is not unity. It is the prison of forced conformity. That is not an atomosphere the Holy Spirit could operate freely in.

In the thread about the Sabbath, The 2nd Commandment, Does it have to be obeyed?, there were accusation of false teachings and cult-like doctrines from the SDA doctrines. The cult-like doctrine statement in the thread still exist, but the end of the thread is missing. The MODS leave a reason why it is being closed and that is also missing. This removed the statements about false teaching. In another thread that was closed, What is the true role of the New Testament?, Does it build on or pretty much replaces the Old Tastement? there was so much infighting going on that the MODS had to heavily edit the thread. Then there was another thread that disappeared all together about the Catholic church worshiping idols. Even though all points were valid, and I agree with them, this only supports the fact that there is division among those who have salvation through Jesus. It is their doctrines that bring the division. I see those who accept Jesus as their savior as part of the Body of Christ. That would include many from these so called cults. It is their denominational doctrines that lead them astray, not their belief in Christ.

As for your questions; "How serious would you be about everyone believing the same things? What would you say if you, in the name of "unity," were expected to sacrifice some beliefs you hold dear to, for the sake of the greater good of the collective? Everyone who calls for us to have NO differences in doctrine, have not really thought out just exactly which doctrine EVERYONE should follow, and just who has to sacrifice which paritcular beliefs and conform to the beliefs of the whole, whether they truly believe those things or not. Do you think the Calvinists will give up Predestination? Do you see th Pentacostals willing to lay speaking in tongues on the chopping block?"

If those who continuously sought the truth taught to us by the Holy Spirit changed according to what the Spirit taught them, then unity would be at hand. If I held beliefs that were wrong, and He convicted me of them, yes, I would change. Wouldn't you? These "sacrifices" would be well worth the prideful pain of our flesh in order to have one Body, as Christ as the head. Those who are unwilling to be molded by the truth are not seeking truth in the first place. They seek to put their conscience to ease by placing their beliefs in doctrines made by man. Not everything in these doctrines are false or misleading, but parts are. Some exclude what Jesus told us to believe in, like the gifts of the Spirit are not for today, for one. It is so much easier to leave all the work to someone else and just kick back waiting for Christ to take us, then it is to seek truth and change. Change means work, humility, sacrifice, faith, death to the flesh and complete belief that Jesus is still the same today. Your questions reflect my point of view. Look at the different denominations, and you barely scratched the surface!

Who do you really believe caused denominations in the first place? Was it God, man, Satan, or a combination? Is it helping the reason of Jesus death or hindering it? Do they bring honor to God or do they prove to the unbeliever that we can't even agree on the truth we claim is held in the Bible?

Tell me how divisions called denominations are good. If what I hold as truth is a lie, then set me straight and show me where I can find this in scripture.

Who started denominations?

Martin Luther did.

Prior to the reformation there was in the West only one Christian Church totally united. Tell me was that a good thing?

Basically you are mad because people don't agree with your take on scripture and you feel that if people would only see things your way we would be united. That really is not very earth shaking of an idea.

[Guest shiloh357]

OTOH, denoms are just sub-groups of the Body that gather according to similar beliefs.

Is this Biblical? Where is it shown to be a such thing as a sub group of the Body. Is this like a body within the Body.

Where is it shown that we are to gather according to similar beliefs. So if you and I have different views on the rapture, do we seperate and form our own thing, with those who believe as I do with me and those who believe as you do joining you. That seems like sectarianism to me.

No it is not sectarianism. Sectarianism would be if each denomination believed that they, and they alone, were the only Christians and all other denominations are invalid and thus outside the pale of true New Testament Christianity.

[Guest shiloh357]

OTOH, denoms are just sub-groups of the Body that gather according to similar beliefs.

Is this Biblical? Where is it shown to be a such thing as a sub group of the Body. Is this like a body within the Body.

Where is it shown that we are to gather according to similar beliefs. So if you and I have different views on the rapture, do we seperate and form our own thing, with those who believe as I do with me and those who believe as you do joining you. That seems like sectarianism to me.

No it is not sectarianism. Sectarianism would be if each denomination believed that they, and they alone, were the only Christians and all other denominations are invalid and thus outside the pale of true New Testament Christianity.

Def taken from dic.com

Sectarianism:

Adhering or confined to the dogmatic limits of a sect or denomination; partisan.

Taken from the same site:

sec

[OneLight]

Who started denominations?

Martin Luther did.

Prior to the reformation there was in the West only one Christian Church totally united. Tell me was that a good thing?

Basically you are mad because people don't agree with your take on scripture and you feel that if people would only see things your way we would be united. That really is not very earth shaking of an idea.

I would say Satan tried to start denominations by attempting to split the true Body of Christ. The first record that I can remember is when Satan brought the influence of division to the church of Corinth. Even though they did not start their own churches with different names, because Paul nipped it in the bud, Satan was in the middle by influencing each group that they were of one while another group was of another, instead of all being of Christ. He failed, until years later, when Constantine placed himself as the head of the church. At this time, Satan had only to influence one person. Finally, Luther was guided by His Spirit to bring the truth to the people in order to allow the works of Jesus to once again become known to the world. I have found nowhere in the Bible that tells me God divides His Body.

We have been mature so far and have not attacked anyone with assumptions, sticking to the subject, and not getting personal. I would like to keep it that way.

[OneLight]

That is less an example of doctrinal division, and more of an example of the usual problems on this board that occur when various personalities collide. Genuine division stems from pride, bitterness, stubbornness, anger, dishonesty and other such things. It is not the doctrines that bring division. It is how human beings communicate those doctrines and how they relate to others who hold different doctrines that end up causing all of the strife and division.

I agree with your definition of division. Yet, denominations are based on different beliefs. If it were not so, then there would be no denominations. I wonder what was behind the divisions if it were not for the reasons you stated above as a definition of the word itself? Being too stubborn to work to find the truth, being to prideful to admit that they may of been wrong on certain points, or even being dishonest to the point that they state that God told them something that He did not, only to gain strength in their way of thinking. You have just sealed the true reason why there are so many denominations.

That having been said, I need to qualify my position by pointing out that there is a time when doctrinal division isn necessary. When someone professing Christ rejects basic fundamentals of the faith such as the Deity of Jesus, and basic biblical teachings on the essential nature of God and so forth. There are times when genuine doctrinal "division" is necessary in standing for the truth.

Do you see this as the answer? Would it not be better to continue working toward the truth? Isn't there just one truth? If the difference divides the church, then they are dividing the Body.

As for these cults... One thing I have learned is that the most successful and pernicious of all cults, are the ones who use the Bible. They wear a cloak of Christian fundamentalism on the exterior. Their public face is one where they are very proficient at using "Christianese" to appear to most folks as legitimate Christianity. It is when you dig a little deeper into their theology that you find out how they really believe salvation is attained. That is why I don't feel any obligation to accept them as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I agree with you 100% when it comes to some who call themselves a Christian church, but who's God is totally different. I'm sure we can name them easily, but for the sake of not being sidetracked, let's not. Yet, there are also some who are stuck on one little belief that would add to salvation and the work on the cross. There is only one way to salvation, as we agree, but the difference starts when we move past salvation into works. Some can not see that there is a difference while others can see works as being separate from salvation. This comes with maturity, dividing the word correctly.

The problem is that everyone is alreadly claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit to believe as they believe on any given subject, but they both disagree over how a particular passage should be understood, and/or the correctness of a particular doctrine. When you have two people, each believing their view is given to them by the Holy Spirit, both have their own arsenal of Scriptural support to back up their position, what is the standard against which we measure their claims to see which one is legitmate and who determines what that standard will be

We are the ones who get frustrated and discouraged when we face these differences. God will only stick to the truth. It is when we take our eyes off from God and place them on ourselves, in this case our beliefs, we start to walk down the wrong road. I have never tried to imply that agreeing on one truth, the scriptures as taught to the first Christians, would ever be an easy task. I am saying that it is the correct thing to do. You can disagree with me all you want, but like I said earlier, Jesus himself stated that a house divided will not stand, and that I have not been able to find anywhere in the Bible where it was even suggested in the slightest that we become a church of many different truths.

Those who are unwilling to be molded by the truth are not seeking truth in the first place. They seek to put their conscience to ease by placing their beliefs in doctrines made by man.

That is a completely subjective argument, though.

To a degree, I agree. We all have our own way of giving examples, and the one I used above would fit into your statement. It would of been a better statement if I had said that those who are not looking to grow in Christ, learning more truth from His Spirit, have become complacent where they are in their beliefs. Stagnant within their growth in Christian maturity. If this happens to be because they wish not to change from the doctrines of a denomination, then my statement would hold true.

I think I have said this before, but I will say it again. When it comes to "men's teachings" or "men's doctrines" etc., I tend to notice that some people (not you, Onelight) seem to get a bit hypocritical about that. They claim to reject "the teachings of man" and only follow the Holy Spirit. Yet these same people expect their views to be recognized as accepted as truth. These "men" who don't "listen to the teaching of men" want other men to listen and hopefully agree with, their teaching. They want others to do what they claim is a sin for themselves. I see it all the time on this board.

Do you know how "the doctrines/teachings of men" is usually defined, especially here on Worthy Boards? They are defined as, "anything you say that I disagree with." The "men's teachings/doctrines" remarks are just another tactic employed to discredit the views of an opponent. If I disagree with you, it is just so much easier for me to stick my nose in the air and declare that, "you are just spreading the 'doctines of men,' but I am listening to the Holy Spirit." It is easier fo me to fall back on that crutch than it is for me to entertain the possibility that your views might have some merit. There are people who are currently posting on this board who see any disagreement with their point of view on peripheral issues as a rejection of the Bible itself.

I also have seen this many time myself. I can only speak for myself, but when I see this happening, it saddens me greatly.

Right now, we see through a glass darkly as Paul would say. While we seek to be led by the Holy Spirit, none of us corner the market on what is or is not true. Our understanding of the Bible is darkened in many areas, and for that reason, we are never going to get to that perfect place in this life where there is no difference of opinion.

I agree with what Paul said. We will never fully understand everything that Christ tried to teach us, for we have never truly been one with Christ as we will be after this life. Yet, that same scripture tells us that we are to put away our childish behavior and act like mature men. Mature people seek the truth and never become complacent with half truths. Are we not drawing a line and agreeing to not go any further when we accept that there may be different truths within one truth?

Division comes when people are unwilling to work together because of their differences. The differences are not the problem. The problem at that point is pride. That is where the division occurs. I can easily fellowship with those who don't see eye to eye with me on a whole host of issues. Disagreement is not division. Diversity is not division. Neither of those are the root of the problem.

Pride is one of the main reasons for not seeking as much truth as we can, a large part of the root of the problem. Since we see through a glass darkly, or in a mirror dimly, does this give us the excuse to stop trying? Fellowship with another church body is always seen as a healing process for what divides us. It is a step forward. I agree that the connection is not severed between the different denominations, for we are of Christ. I see the different denominations as a wound that we are not trying to heal. As I stated before, and would like to emphasize on, is the fact Christ wanted unity within His Body. We have a commitment to Jesus to follow His example, not to sit there and let the wound fester and not heal completely.

I realize that there are few who will see as I see. I am not trying to convince anyone to believe my words, but to search the Word to see if they are true or false. Let the Holy Spirit show you what He has heard from God, and to take the human factor out of the picture, place what you feel is being told to you beside scripture and see if they match. I'm speaking what is in my heart after studying the early church and praying to God to show me which is the true Body.

[Smalcald]

Who started denominations?

Martin Luther did.

Prior to the reformation there was in the West only one Christian Church totally united. Tell me was that a good thing?

Basically you are mad because people don't agree with your take on scripture and you feel that if people would only see things your way we would be united. That really is not very earth shaking of an idea.

I would say Satan tried to start denominations by attempting to split the true Body of Christ. The first record that I can remember is when Satan brought the influence of division to the church of Corinth. Even though they did not start their own churches with different names, because Paul nipped it in the bud, Satan was in the middle by influencing each group that they were of one while another group was of another, instead of all being of Christ. He failed, until years later, when Constantine placed himself as the head of the church. At this time, Satan had only to influence one person. Finally, Luther was guided by His Spirit to bring the truth to the people in order to allow the works of Jesus to once again become known to the world. I have found nowhere in the Bible that tells me God divides His Body.

We have been mature so far and have not attacked anyone with assumptions, sticking to the subject, and not getting personal. I would like to keep it that way.

Yes me also I don't want to attack anyone, including my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ and including the majority of Christians who belong to some form of a denomination.

Why should I accept your view of history that you have written above? I agree that Luther was guided by the Holy Spirit and really do feel that the division that he brought to the Body of Christ was worth the price of that division. But from the moment Luther let loose the forces of non-conformity he spent his entire life working to bring them back to what he felt was an obvious doctrine. He was wrong on that account from that time on we have had almost continual splintering, and that splintering continues today with new groups popping up every month, none of them getting along, yes I agree this is a problem I don't know what the answer is. I know what the answer is not; the answer to division is not MORE division. I encourage people to stay in the denomination you are currently united with and grow that group (as long as you are convinced it is biblical); this is the way to start to stop disunity in my opinion.

But like I said I don

[OneLight]

Why should I accept your view of history that you have written above?

I can only refer to scripture for my explanation. The division that started was caused by pride, which is sin. Sin is the influence of Satan, where he knows our weaknesses and works on them. Here is the scripture where I see the first attempt of denominationalism started.

1 Corinthians 1: 10-13

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe