I've been wondering ................

[buckthesystem]

I've been reading a book about Jesus' death and resurrection. It is a story about an American police detective who is "expert in his field" and suddenly and inexplicably finds himself in Jerusalem in the first century, just after the death of Jesus so he goes round interviewing any witnesses and anyone who might have known Jesus and taking "forensic" samples from different scenes that had something to do with the arrest of Jesus, the "trial" and torture and death.

When it came to the part where the hero interviews one of the deciples about the suicide of Judas and the deciple offers his opinion - when asked why he thought Judas betrayed Jesus, then killed himself - that Judas was distraught because he (Judas) betrayed Jesus to "back him into a corner" and "goad" him into fighting against the Roman oppressors, but this course of action hadn't worked.

I have wondered about this many times before, and this story just brought it up again in my mind.

I know that everything that happened to Jesus at that time was part of the "grand plan", but it strikes me that it was little understood by anyone at the time, and has made for a lot of mystery and doubt since. There are now Christians who are absolutely certain of the power of Jesus because they have personally experienced so many things, and there are those Christians who are in a near-constant struggle to live the Christian life.

There are, of course, multitudes of doubters in Christ.

It has seemed to me, for some time, that if Jesus had "called upon legions of angels" when he was arrested by the Romans, he would have made it obvious that he was the son of God. He could have fought the Roman oppressors and then still carried out "the plan" and died on the cross as a martyr for our sins, so there would be no more sacrifices. Under this scenario not many could have denied that Jesus was who he said he was and today Christianity would have been far more widespread than it is.

Why do you suppose Jesus did not fight the Roman oppressors?

And why do you suppose Judas has been so villified, when it was totally necessary for him to "do his part" or "the plan" would never have happened?

[Afal]

And why do you suppose Judas has been so villified, when it was totally necessary for him to "do his part" or "the plan" would never have happened?

I too have asked this question many times and have never been given an answer that explains it to me!

[eric]

Buck. I don't know any true born again christians, who would mess with God's word. Ya believe or ya don't. Stone the crows, Buck you sure read a lot of junk.

[Guest shiloh357]

And why do you suppose Judas has been so villified, when it was totally necessary for him to "do his part" or "the plan" would never have happened?

the fact is that the notion that Judas was trying to goad Jesus into fighting the Romans is not in the Bible. It offers no such motive for Judas. So, that is really more conjecture than anything else.

Secondly, the Bible reveals a man named Judas who was at heart a very dishonest man. Judas was the treasureer of this group of disciples. He handled the money and the Bible tells us that Judas was skimming from the treasury. When the woman poured spikenard on the feet of Jesus, Judas claimed it to be a waste but should have been sold and the money given to the poor, but the Bible says Judas wanted the money for himself.

Jesus called Judas "a devil." It would appear that Judas' betrayal of Jesus was done under demonic influence and once done, the influence left him, and then, returning to his senses, seeing what he has done, is filled with remorse is unconsolable and in a rash moment of irrational grief, commits suicide.

Had Judas NOT committed suicide, I believe he would have been restored by Jesus after Jesus resurrection just like Peter was, and who knows if Judas might have gone on to be one of the major figures of the NT? We can only speculate how Judas might have been used by the Lord had he not committed suicide.

[tsth]

And why do you suppose Judas has been so villified, when it was totally necessary for him to "do his part" or "the plan" would never have happened?

the fact is that the notion that Judas was trying to goad Jesus into fighting the Romans is not in the Bible. It offers no such motive for Judas. So, that is really more conjecture than anything else.

Secondly, the Bible reveals a man named Judas who was at heart a very dishonest man. Judas was the treasureer of this group of disciples. He handled the money and the Bible tells us that Judas was skimming from the treasury. When the woman poured spikenard on the feet of Jesus, Judas claimed it to be a waste but should have been sold and the money given to the poor, but the Bible says Judas wanted the money for himself.

Jesus called Judas "a devil." It would appear that Judas' betrayal of Jesus was done under demonic influence and once done, the influence left him, and then, returning to his senses, seeing what he has done, is filled with remorse is unconsolable and in a rash moment of irrational grief, commits suicide.

Had Judas NOT committed suicide, I believe he would have been restored by Jesus after Jesus resurrection just like Peter was, and who knows if Judas might have gone on to be one of the major figures of the NT? We can only speculate how Judas might have been used by the Lord had he not committed suicide.

Wonderful reply shiloh.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[buckthesystem]

This was not the first time I came across the theory that Judas wanted Jesus to lead a revolution against the Roman oppressors. I have read that a lot of people including most of the deciples expected that, many, many times. However, it was always presented as speculation as nowhere Biblically does it actually say that.

History tells us that in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus life it was a particularly politically charged society. A society where the Jews were living under Roman occupation, and they not only had to put up with that but they had to put up with their own "petty officials" capitulating to Roman rule (things like the Romans deciding how long Caiphais, or who ever, should be the high priest for). It must have been incredibly hard on the ordinary person, with the Romans demanding extortionate taxes and showing no mercy if the people's crops failed or something and they couldn't afford them. Harder still for them knowing that their own kind were used to collect these taxes (even if they were ostracised as a result and could only associate with other tax collectors).

It seems logical that a lot of people were hoping that Jesus had become one of them in order to deliver them from all this.

As "seeing is believing", he might have instantly collected hundreds or thousands more followers if he had taken an anti-Roman stance.

Does anyone have any theories on this.

I'm not looking for hard facts I have enough literature about what actually happened at that time - the Bible. I am looking for opinions.

[Massorite]

I've been reading a book about Jesus' death and resurrection. It is a story about an American police detective who is "expert in his field" and suddenly and inexplicably finds himself in Jerusalem in the first century, just after the death of Jesus so he goes round interviewing any witnesses and anyone who might have known Jesus and taking "forensic" samples from different scenes that had something to do with the arrest of Jesus, the "trial" and torture and death.

When it came to the part where the hero interviews one of the disciples about the suicide of Judas and the decile offers his opinion - when asked why he thought Judas betrayed Jesus, then killed himself - that Judas was distraught because he (Judas) betrayed Jesus to "back him into a corner" and "goad" him into fighting against the Roman oppressors, but this course of action hadn't worked.

I have wondered about this many times before, and this story just brought it up again in my mind.

I know that everything that happened to Jesus at that time was part of the "grand plan", but it strikes me that it was little understood by anyone at the time, and has made for a lot of mystery and doubt since. There are now Christians who are absolutely certain of the power of Jesus because they have personally experienced so many things, and there are those Christians who are in a near-constant struggle to live the Christian life.

There are, of course, multitudes of doubters in Christ.

It has seemed to me, for some time, that if Jesus had "called upon legions of angels" when he was arrested by the Romans, he would have made it obvious that he was the son of God. He could have fought the Roman oppressors and then still carried out "the plan" and died on the cross as a martyr for our sins, so there would be no more sacrifices. Under this scenario not many could have denied that Jesus was who he said he was and today Christianity would have been far more widespread than it is.

Why do you suppose Jesus did not fight the Roman oppressors?

And why do you suppose Judas has been so vilified, when it was totally necessary for him to "do his part" or "the plan" would never have happened?

First of all we must remember that the bible says that the "devil entered into Judas" so by this we know that Judas was possessed at the time that he betrayed Jesus and was still possessed at the moment he was dipping the bread in the bowl with Jesus.

The question here is "how is it that the devil was able to possess Judas while Judas was with Jesus and one of His disciples? The answer is in the actions of Judas. He did it for the money. In spite of the teachings of Jesus there was a part of Judas that he never turned over to God for rebuilding. He had his own reasoning and his own plan of action on what should be done and thought he could control God and His actions. And his motivations was money and self centered so satan was able to possess him and have an influence on his actions.

Jesus didn't call down the angels because it was not in the plan of God for Him to do so and He practiced what He preached. Which was obedience to the Father at all costs. Besides that if Jesus and the angels killed off all of the Romans who would have been there to crucify Him? Who would have been there to force the Gospel to be spread through out the world? Had it not been for the persecution of the early church by the Romans the Gospel would have gone nowhere. If Jesus had called down the angels the Jew would never have killed Him because He would have proved that He was indeed the son of God with the power to call down the angels.

We should remember that the Jews misinterpreted the scriptures. They understood what the bible was saying as speaking about an outward war on earth with all the same stuff they always had. But they were wrong

[buckthesystem]

I've been reading a book about Jesus' death and resurrection. It is a story about an American police detective who is "expert in his field" and suddenly and inexplicably finds himself in Jerusalem in the first century, just after the death of Jesus so he goes round interviewing any witnesses and anyone who might have known Jesus and taking "forensic" samples from different scenes that had something to do with the arrest of Jesus, the "trial" and torture and death.

When it came to the part where the hero interviews one of the disciples about the suicide of Judas and the decile offers his opinion - when asked why he thought Judas betrayed Jesus, then killed himself - that Judas was distraught because he (Judas) betrayed Jesus to "back him into a corner" and "goad" him into fighting against the Roman oppressors, but this course of action hadn't worked.

I have wondered about this many times before, and this story just brought it up again in my mind.

I know that everything that happened to Jesus at that time was part of the "grand plan", but it strikes me that it was little understood by anyone at the time, and has made for a lot of mystery and doubt since. There are now Christians who are absolutely certain of the power of Jesus because they have personally experienced so many things, and there are those Christians who are in a near-constant struggle to live the Christian life.

There are, of course, multitudes of doubters in Christ.

It has seemed to me, for some time, that if Jesus had "called upon legions of angels" when he was arrested by the Romans, he would have made it obvious that he was the son of God. He could have fought the Roman oppressors and then still carried out "the plan" and died on the cross as a martyr for our sins, so there would be no more sacrifices. Under this scenario not many could have denied that Jesus was who he said he was and today Christianity would have been far more widespread than it is.

Why do you suppose Jesus did not fight the Roman oppressors?

And why do you suppose Judas has been so vilified, when it was totally necessary for him to "do his part" or "the plan" would never have happened?

First of all we must remember that the bible says that the "devil entered into Judas" so by this we know that Judas was possessed at the time that he betrayed Jesus and was still possessed at the moment he was dipping the bread in the bowl with Jesus.

The question here is "how is it that the devil was able to possess Judas while Judas was with Jesus and one of His disciples? The answer is in the actions of Judas. He did it for the money. In spite of the teachings of Jesus there was a part of Judas that he never turned over to God for rebuilding. He had his own reasoning and his own plan of action on what should be done and thought he could control God and His actions. And his motivations was money and self centered so satan was able to possess him and have an influence on his actions.

Jesus didn't call down the angels because it was not in the plan of God for Him to do so and He practiced what He preached. Which was obedience to the Father at all costs. Besides that if Jesus and the angels killed off all of the Romans who would have been there to crucify Him? Who would have been there to force the Gospel to be spread through out the world? Had it not been for the persecution of the early church by the Romans the Gospel would have gone nowhere. If Jesus had called down the angels the Jew would never have killed Him because He would have proved that He was indeed the son of God with the power to call down the angels.

We should remember that the Jews misinterpreted the scriptures. They understood what the bible was saying as speaking about an outward war on earth with all the same stuff they always had. But they were wrong

Just a point about your statements with regard to Judas's personality and motives. Firstly if he was so dishonest why did Jesus have him as a deciple? As Jesus knew that Judas would betray him (the same as he predicted that Peter would deny him) he must have known that Judas was money-grubbing and possessed by the devil so why did he put up with it?

Or are you saying that as Jesus had taken on the body of a mortal, he was just as vulnerable as any of us, to deception?

Which brings up another point: Do you think that Jesus was "in on the plan" from the beginning, i.e. from when he was first baptized and started his ministry? Or maybe even from childhood?

[tsth]

Just a point about your statements with regard to Judas's personality and motives. Firstly if he was so dishonest why did Jesus have him as a deciple? As Jesus knew that Judas would betray him (the same as he predicted that Peter would deny him) he must have known that Judas was money-grubbing and possessed by the devil so why did he put up with it?

I think it was necessary in teaching the new believers to really understand that:

There WILL be decievers among them, among their own numbers, especially of the kind who love mammon more than God!

In His Love,

Suzanne

[nebula]

It has seemed to me, for some time, that if Jesus had "called upon legions of angels" when he was arrested by the Romans, he would have made it obvious that he was the son of God. He could have fought the Roman oppressors and then still carried out "the plan" and died on the cross as a martyr for our sins, so there would be no more sacrifices. Under this scenario not many could have denied that Jesus was who he said he was and today Christianity would have been far more widespread than it is.

Why do you suppose Jesus did not fight the Roman oppressors?

The only answers I can think of are these:

He couldn't exactly be "like a lamb to the slaughter" if He had fought back.

Isaiah 53 wouldn't have been seen as a fulfilled prophecy if He had fought back.

Jesus died during the Passover, some have pieced together (maybe you can fill in the details, Shiloh?) that His death actually corresponded with the time of the sacrifice. Note also that it was the Chief Priest who delivered Jesus Pilot to be put to death. If Jesus had "proved" that He was God, the Chief Priest would not have given Jesus over to be put to death, which again means He could not have been the ultimate sacrifice, because His death had to be through the hands of the Chief Priest.

Make sense?