Marriage & Divorce question

[kat8585]

It looks like we will have to agree to disagree.

[deut31:12]

From many of the posts here, it sounds like Jesus and the New Testament writers needn't have said all those things about divorce and remarriage, as they can all be gotten around one way or another, and in the end, anything goes.

When the traditional doctrine of divorce is exposed for the religious mindset that it is and we become loosed from its bondage, it typically feels like what you have described. Which is one reason many resist the undermining of this traditional doctrine.

Here's the bottom line: A marriage begins when we covenant with each other making vows before the Lord. These vows from OT days until now have remained remarkably consistant. They are, in their simplest form, to feed, clothe, and love each other faithfully.

If one partner breaks a covenant vow and repents, the wronged partner must forgive. But if someone hardheartedly and unrepentantly continues to violate the vows of the covenant, then the wronged partner has the right, if they chose, to except that the covenant is broken, the marriage is dead and get a divorce which is the death certificate of the marriage. The marriage was killed by the sin of broken marriage vows.

The grounds for divorce which emanate from the marraige vows are sexual immoratlity, neglect, and abuse. These were the accepted grounds in all of first century Judaism. Jesus overtly upheld the sexual immorality ground in His debate with the Pharisees over the interpretation of Deut 24:1 (Matt 19:3-9) and it can be argued that He gave tacit approval to the neglect and abuse grounds because He never mentions them one way or another and Paul relied upon them for his council in I Cor 7.

God never intended for someone to be held in bondage and misery in a relationship with an unrepentant covenant breaker. The Lord Himself set the example when He gave Isreal a bill of divorce for the hardhearted and unrepentant breaking of their marriage covenant.

Greg.

He did not give silent approval to divorce for the causes of neglect or abuse. That is being read and justified into this for an allowance that Jesus never gave.

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. - Matthew 19:9

This is the only reason that Jesus is giving us for the cause to divorce. This says that if I put away my wife and marry another that I commit adultery and whoever marries my wife also commits adultery, unless the divorce was for the reason of fornication.

You are right that God never intended anybody to live in a bad relationship. As has been said before, Paul does stipulate that we can walk away from a marriage. That is why Jesus continued with these next verses.

His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. -

Matthew 19:10-12

If I have an abusive spouse I can walk away, but if fornication was not the factor for the divorce then I cannot remarry lawfully in the sight of God.

If we do get divorced for any other reason than infidelity and opt to stay unmarried, then we are eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. The question is though, can we receive this that we cannot remarry, as Jesus says, if the putting away was not for the reason of fornication?

[kat8585]

....and here Jesus clearly says NO SIGN will be given to that generation...

Mar 8:11-13 KJV And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. (12) And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you,

There shall

no sign

be given unto this generation.

(13) And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.

So tell us poster, is Jesus LYING in Mark 8:11-13 there?

Was He SERIOUS that NO sign would be given there in that very CLEAR statement ?

Please tell us how His words there can be so clear... so unyeilding... so ABSOLUTE...and then not be 100% of the whole truth.

I fail to see what this has to do with the topic.

[Smalcald]

But people do find themselves in these situations who are Christians.

What I mean is what do we do with a person say a women who was a Christian married to an abusive husband. The husband may or may not have cheated (most abusers do at some point), but we don't know she does not know, she left him and divorced for the sake of her safety and the safety of her children and with the encouragement of her family, friends and church. After a couple of years she re-marries. Now she is in our congregation and is struck that she may not have a strict scriptural reason for her original divorce. Let us get down to brass tacks here, what are we telling her to do, what would Christ tell her to do now, not in the past as the past is dead and gone, what does she do now? Does she leave her current husband who has now become a father to her kids? Does she leave the church because she cannot abide by something that would hurt her children?

These are real issues women and men face. I would certainly like to untangle the past and the messes we all get into, but I think we need to be ready to handle situations as they are not as we would like them to be.

Certainly I have said on this thread that unrepentant fornication and adultery is not going to be forgiven just because you remarry, but that is a different topic than remarriage in general. I also agree with you Butaro that the biblical reasons given by Christ for divorce are adultery or abandonment by an unbelieving spouse. But that does not help me with the above situation nor does that help this women, what is she to do now?

[deut31:12]

And playing someones advocate here, if you say that adultery gives allowance for divorce and remarriage, arent you defying Paul who twice shows that the wife is bound UNTIL THE DEATH of her husband in Romans 7 and again in 1 cor 7:39 ?

Paul gives NO exceptions for adultery or fornication at all. Only the absolute that she is this mans wife until he is dead and only then can she remarry.

If Paul says 'bound by law until the DEATH' of her husband, then how can you say that anyone is free to remarry BEFORE the DEATH of their spouse?

Shouldnt you be taking Pauls words that marriage is UNTIL death seriously too ?

Was Paul lying or false in his statement both times that the wife is BOUND BY LAW until the DEATH of her husband ?

*IF* Pauls words are actually accurate in those two passages, then HOW can a woman who is already BOUND in marriage then marry another man during her husbands lifetime ?

You see, if i wanted to make ANY particular passage absolute, I could teach all sorts of things that someone in this thread isnt going to agree with.

This is why we HARMONIZE Gods whole word...why we 'rightly divide' the word of truth and dont grab a few passages out of context and make them absolute such as the one that says NO SIGN will be given....

This excuse is almost always given to justify correct exegesis of scripture.

You have to take what Jesus wrote and what Paul wrote. Use your own understanding in this. The only two things that will release us out of marriage and be able to lawfully remarry is if my spouse is cheating on me or if my spouse has passed away.

If you take the whole account as the whole you will have a clear understanding of what Jesus is saying.

The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? - Matthew 19:3

The Pharisees started with this question of being able to divorce to every cause. According to today's understanding and belief's the answer is "yes", but Jesus goes on to give the correct understanding of this.

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. - Matthew 19:4-6

From the beginning of time divorce was not supposed to happen, but the Pharisees go on to ask more.

They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? - Matthew 19:7

Jesus answers them again and puts marriage/divorce/remarriage right back the way it should have been from the beginning BEFORE Moses allowed the divorce for any cause.

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. - Matthew 19:9

This same is reiterated in the book of Luke.

In 1 Corinthians 7:39 the wife may be bound to her husband as long as he lives, but Jesus did say that if one of them cheats on the other the bond may be undone. Remember, "Except for fornication" is Jesus' own words.

And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

- 1 Corinthians 7:10-11

If it comes to a time that one must leave the marriage due to abuse or neglect, they can, but they are to remain to be unmarried or reconcile. When we remain unmarried we are eunuchs for the cause of Christ.

[deut31:12]

Certainly I have said on this thread that unrepentant fornication and adultery is not going to be forgiven just because you remarry, but that is a different topic than remarriage in general. I also agree with you Butaro that the biblical reasons given by Christ for divorce are adultery or abandonment by an unbelieving spouse. But that does not help me with the above situation nor does that help this women, what is she to do now?

But where in scripture does it say that abandonment is also a justifier for lawful remarriage? Jesus' only exception in scripture was for the cause of fornication.

Nobody is saying that anybody should stay in an abusive relationship, but we still have to obey scripture and it says that if we put away our spouse and marry another we commit adultery.

And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery. - Mark 10:11-12

The words abuse or neglect are nowhere found to be qualifiers to lawfully remarry. Jesus gave only the exception of fornication.

Paul gives us in 1 Corinthians that if we do put away our spouse then we are either to reconcile or remain unmarried. So, if a woman puts away her husband because he is neglectful or abusive then either they reconcile and work it out or remain unmarried.

[deut31:12]

If you take the whole account as the whole you will have a clear understanding of what Jesus is saying.

Please poster....after THOUSANDS of hours in the study of this issue, I ASSURE you Ive read and understood that passage HUNDREDS of times at this point.

Stop acting like you are the only one here who reads the material.

A lot of people read it, but not everybody accepts it. When we choose to add anything other than "except for fornication" in this equation then we are adding our won understanding to God's word.

[deut31:12]

Certainly I have said on this thread that unrepentant fornication and adultery is not going to be forgiven just because you remarry, but that is a different topic than remarriage in general. I also agree with you Butaro that the biblical reasons given by Christ for divorce are adultery or abandonment by an unbelieving spouse. But that does not help me with the above situation nor does that help this women, what is she to do now?

Jesus' only exception in scripture was for the cause of fornication.

AND Jesus also says NO SIGN would be given to that generation in Mark 8:11-13.

WAS Jesus LYING there or not poster ?

You keep going to your pet passages to back your claims but they do not present the WHOLE of the truth in this matter..not in the least.

Jesus was dealing with a specific situation there in the gospels...as was Paul in 1 Cor 7....this MUST be taken into account when trying to understand what is being said otherwise we may as well say that Jesus is a liar in either Mark or Matthew when in one case He says NO SIGN would be given and in the other He shows that a sign WOULD be given.

There is MORE to this MDR thing than the passages YOU personally want to acknowledge, poster..that is the point.

You CANNOT allow for remarriage after divorce for adultery if we are going to be legalists because PAUL, Jesus' chosen apostle, says very clearly that marriage is UNTIL DEATH, not adultery.

You are creating an argument that doesn't exist. They aren't even talking about this subject in this particular chapter. The Old Testament was full of signs from God, but when they during the time of Christ started looking for signs this is what Jesus told them.

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: - Matthew 12:38-39

After the manner of signs that you are looking for, this is the only one that Jesus gave.

Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. - John 4:48

Is this your understanding on how you deal with the gospel of Christ?

[kat8585]

And I say that when we choose to reject the absolute statement that she is BOUND BY LAW UNTIL DEATH of her husband that we are ADDING our own understanding..as you are

Then what about where it says that if someone divorces and remarries, then divorces again, they should not remarry their first spouse?

[kat8585]

I can argue that you are using Old covenant law that is no longer applicable....*IF* I want to play the game this way instead of trying to harmonize the whole

I'm getting all my arguments from the New Testament.