Brood of Vipers

[EricH]

Dear EricH,

I'm sorry, but I cannot answer you anymore, as you are not satisfied thus far....and you and I both know that you will not be, with anything I respond.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Sue,

I have asked 2 straight forward questions that for some reason you are hesitant to answer. I am not sure I understand why, but will respect your sihes

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus was not a Pharisee, he was not a part of the Jewish establishment at all. He was a carpenter. He did not receive any of the training in the Jewish schools required to be a Pharisee. He was taught by God Himself, not by man.

John 7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How does this man know letters, having never learned?

7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

It is dangerous to assume things just because He taught in in the synagogues and temple. He was called 'Rabbi' because he taught the people, not because He had the 'official title' of 'Rabbi'. He was a 'teacher come from God', trained and schooled by God and not trained by man.

God Bless,

Dennis

That is not true, Dennis. "Rabbi" is an earned title. It always has been. It is no different than titles like "Doctor" or "Professor." Jesus was a carpenter, but Rabbis always had other trades. Hilel was was woodcutter (we call them a lumberjack). Shammai was a metalworker and Paul was a tentmaker. Rabbis did not make their living off of being Rabbis. In ancient Israel EVERYONE had a trade, so the fact that Jesus was a carpenter does not mean He was not a trained Rabbi. All Rabbis were of one or the other school of Pharisees.

Jesus could NOT have taught in the Temple legally under Jewish Law if He had not been a trained Rabbi of the school of Pharisees. YOU need to learn some history, Dennis as you deficient in this area.

The reason they considered Jesus unlearned is because Jesus was a Gallilean Rabbi, and the Gallileans were the lower, poverty class of Israelites in the first century. The Gallilean Rabbis were not considered to be of the same quality as those trained in the seminaries in Jerusalem and it was for that reason that people were so amazed at how Jesus stumped the other Rabbis from Jerusalem.

Jesus even quoted from the Talmud. Jesus said several things are taken from othe Talmud and Jews reading the New Testament or even hearing Jesus first hand, would have recognized teachings of Jesus' taken directly from the Oral Law. For example. "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath is almost a verbatim quotation taken from tractate Yoma in the Mishnah.

[Guest shiloh357]

Dear EricH,

I'm sorry, but I cannot answer you anymore, as you are not satisfied thus far....and you and I both know that you will not be, with anything I respond.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Yeah it is the same kind of evasiveness others of us have gotten from Suzanne. When you ask her a straightforward question, she will run you around the Mulberry bush a million times to keep from admitting that she might have been wrong about something. There is this thing called "integrity..."

[Guest]

calling Jesus a <snippity snipe> is outrageous, because right here he basically labeled the entire movement as <snippity snipe snipe>.

Dear Brother I Can Only Find This "Outrage" In One Post

Our Beloved Shiloh Would Never Made Such A Mockery Of His LORD And Savior

Also Because The Work Of Salvation Was Worked Out By God From Before The Foundation Of The World I Don't Understand What "Movement" You Are Thinking Of

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" Ephesians 1:4

The LORD Jesus Is THE TEACHER, He Is THE RABBI (Same Thought, Different Sounds)

"And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes" Matthew 7:28-29

We Have One Master Even The Christ And We Are All Brothers

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren" Matthew 23:8

So May The Word Of Christ Bubble Up From Your Heart

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" Colossians 3:16

Overflowing And Making Melody To The LORD

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" Ephesians 5:19

For He Is So Worthy To Receive Worship

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created" Revelation 4:11

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Pilgrim7]

Conundrum,

Thanks for the support. There many things that pass for history today, just as there are many things that pass for truth. I guess there will always be those who think that they are wiser than the Scriptures. It is true that there were honest Pharisees, but they were not in the majority, and definitely were not listened to by the majority.

Here Jesus seemed to know what the term Rabbi meant:

John 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and said to them, What do you seek? They said to him, Rabbi, which is to say, being interpreted, Master, where dwellest thou?

Here He commented on the popular usage of the term:

Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 23:8 But be not called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all you are brethren.

23:9 And call no man your father (oops, how about Holy Father)upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

23:10 Neither be called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither allow those that are entering to go in.

Do you think that Jesus learned this from the 'popular schools' of His day while studying to be a Pharisee.

You make a good point, at the age of 12, he was wiser that the 'Pharisees' and 'Rabbis' of His time and saw their blindness toward God. Maybe they made Him an 'honorary' Rabbi, for He was teaching them (tongue in cheek).

When Jesus said that the 'Sabbath was made for Man', He was only stating the truth, for He had made the Sabbath for Adam, which means 'man', thus for all 'mankind' when He created the world. It was the truth, for He is the truth, all He did and all He said was the truth. Just because the Talmud has this truth in it, means nothing, anyone can be right upon occasion. Most of what the Pharisees taught came from the Talmud, which was Scripture sifted through the 'wisdom of man', thus hypocrisy.

Back to topic, What ever the Pharisees taught concerning the Scripture was to be followed as the OP makes clear, it was the 'wisdom of man' filtering the Scriptures that led to their hypocrisy and thus brought them under the rebuke of Christ.

God bless,

Dennis

[Guest shiloh357]

In case you didn't know this, they didn't allow Jesus to teach. They chased him out of the cities and even attempted to stone him on several occasions. Jesus did not submit to their man made authority or man made laws even one time. In fact on two ocassions he publicly forced THEM (the pharisees and other corrupt groups) out of the temple by making a whip and driving out the animals and overturning their tables.

As yes, another Christian who doesn't know history, but then it is those who are the most ignorant that have the biggest mouths.

You need to read your Bible. Jesus was always teaching. He was teaching everywhere. Even in the Temple. In fact, Jesus at one point had at least 120 desciples. No one had disciples accept the Pharisees of that time. Luke 19:47 says that Jesus taught DAILY in the Temple.

Here is what Jesus said at his trial.

"I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus answered him. "I have always taught in the synagogue and in the temple complex, where all the Jews congregate, and I haven't spoken anything in secret.

(John 18:20)

Just has one has to be qualified to teach in a University or public school, ONLY Rabbis taught in the Synagogue and ALL Rabbis belong to one of the nine schools of the Pharisess. And the Pharisees were the only ones who had disciples. I am sorry conundrum, but you just don't know what you are talking about, and you clearly don't read your Bible.

Shiloh,

Jesus was not a pharisee and vehemently opposed almost all of the major doctrines of the time. it is you who need to get your facts straight because Jesus preached more against the pharisees doctrine than almost anything else in the Bible.

No, YOU need to get that facts straight. You didn't even know Jesus taught in the synagogue and the Temple. You are not qualified to instruct me on "facts." Go study.

Jesus was astonishing the "doctors of the Law" when he was 12 years old. It had absolutely nothing to do with any training of man.

Jesus astonished the people because it was not every day that a Gallilean Rabbi could score as many points as Jesus did. It had everything to do with Jesus exposing their hypocrisy.

Also, for anyone who actually cares about the truth, Mary and Joseph were poor enough that they gave the poor man's sacrifice, they could not have afforded to pay tuition for Jesus to go to some "bible college", LIke Paul did under Gamiliel.

Uh, it didn't work like that. Again, you don't know what you are talking about.

So get your facts straight. Jesus knew the law better at 12 years old than the pharisees ever did, and he could not have payed their price for tutilage anyway.

No, you need to study some real history and learn some real facts. Jesus was not against the Pharisees per say, and the Pharisees were not all hypocrites. You simply cannot put all the Pharisees in one pot. Jesus' confrontations with Pharisees were with those who were his detractors. There were tens of thousands of Pharisees in Jesus day. It was not like it is in the movies where they show like 10 men running around Harassing Jesus.

The Pharisees, like most Jews are seen as the "villians" of the New Testament, but most Christians, including YOU, don't know beans about the Pharisess or first century Jewish history. It is that typical Jews h You need to learn the facts as it is clear that you are sorely deficient.

Jesus said a lot of things that echo the Talmud and are not original with Him. This is important because Jesus was using their own teachings to expose their hypocrisy:

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. - Mark 2:27 - Yoma 85b "For the Sabbath is sanctified unto you; it is committed unto your hands, not you to its hands."

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. - Matthew 25:45 Comes from Tosefta Sh'vuot, ch. 3 "he that betrays his own brothers, it is as if he has betrayed The Almighty."

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. - Matthew 5:28 - Kallah, Ch. 1 "He that gazes lustfully upon the finger of a a man's wife, he has committed adultery with her."

Those are just a few exmples. Much in the Talmud pre dated Jesus by over 200 years. It was a part of His life and the culture at that time. Jesus was a man of His times and for Him to refer to the talmud would not be out of place or unusual.

calling Jesus a pharisee is outrageous, because right here he basicly labeled the entire movement as satanic.

No He did not. That is just you showing your ignorance. Jesus called his enemies the children of satan. He was not labeling the entire movement that way. That is the kind of misinformation that has led to so much Christian hatred of Jews.

[tsth]

Back to topic, What ever the Pharisees taught concerning the Scripture was to be followed as the OP makes clear, it was the 'wisdom of man' filtering the Scriptures that led to their hypocrisy and thus brought them under the rebuke of Christ.

God bless,

Dennis

Thank you Dennis.

Which is also clearly what what being shown in the passages from Conundrum's post. And I agree.

Mark 7: 5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

calling Jesus a pharisee is outrageous, because right here he basicly labeled the entire movement as satanic.

I am so vexed over what I am seeing in today's church, it does not align with the Doctrines of God, but instead, the Doctrines of Men.

It is NOT RIGHT!!!

The word for "brood" is "generation". It is a whole generation that is following this teaching of man, rather than God. The teachers have gone off the "straightway" and are now gone astray.

2 Peter 2:12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. 13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest shiloh357]

I am so vexed over what I am seeing in today's church, it does not align with the Doctrines of God, but instead, the Doctrines of Men.

It is NOT RIGHT!!!

The word for "brood" is "generation". It is a whole generation that is following this teaching of man, rather than God. The teachers have gone off the "straightway" and are now gone astray.

And what qualifes you to make this summary judgment on the rest of the church?

[tsth]

I am so vexed over what I am seeing in today's church, it does not align with the Doctrines of God, but instead, the Doctrines of Men.

It is NOT RIGHT!!!

The word for "brood" is "generation". It is a whole generation that is following this teaching of man, rather than God. The teachers have gone off the "straightway" and are now gone astray.

And what qualifes you to make this summary judgment on the rest of the church?

So, shiloh, with 85% of adult Americans claiming to be Christians, are you saying that this nation is a godly nation? Would you say that you can look around and see a nation bearing "good fruit"? Why are we in the condition we are in???

You think everything is OK????

We are a nation that needs to repent, and TURN BACK TO GOD and HIS WAYS, rather than "doctrines of men"/"humanism".

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tah]

I am so vexed over what I am seeing in today's church, it does not align with the Doctrines of God, but instead, the Doctrines of Men.

It is NOT RIGHT!!!

The word for "brood" is "generation". It is a whole generation that is following this teaching of man, rather than God. The teachers have gone off the "straightway" and are now gone astray.

And what qualifes you to make this summary judgment on the rest of the church?

Out of curiosity shiloh357,

I am wondering what you are saying..

Do you disagree that the church is in serious trouble?

From the news I see all around the world concering the church it looks like it to me..

it that wrong in your view point? Is the church right where it needs to be?

Are our leaders in our churches all ensamples we should follow ...??