trading religion for relationship

[Richard_yaash]

The reference in both cases was to dead churches.

OK - the way "cult" was used in a particular quote, I misunderstood. Apologies.

Not a problem.

For myself, I am interested in discussing/finding ways to help bring back life into these churches.

Yeah, I understand. I was thinking back to a comment that seemed to imply that a church dies or remains dead because those that can give light to the church leave. So, I was trying to explain why it is people with light to give leave.

You're input is appreciated more than you know. Thank you.

Keep in mind that I am a better observer than interpreter. So my presenting of this side is intended to present data with which you can hopefully utilize to come up with a solution. Make sense?

Indubitably. You have indeed given food for thought. Thank you.

I don't have a solution. But in looking at different ways to understand the problem, maybe you or someone can figure out how to tackle the problem, or what the problem is that needs to be tackled.

Exactly Nebula, and that is my hope in this. Please, feel free to share, for it is genuinely appreciated.

[artsylady]

Thank you for the scriptures Jackie. I will definitely read them today. I am at an Internet cafe and on a time limit right now. Also takes me three times longer to type anything as the keyboards in Germany are quite a bit different.

I remember hearing that Dr Laura chose the Jewish faith specifically because it had so many rules and would be hard to stray from and very structured. It got me wondering about the Christian faith and wondering if some really need many of the man made rules because of some sort of fear of going off track or getting out of Gods grace.... just wondering. it keeps them in line and therefore 'safe'.

[Richard_yaash]

I remember hearing that Dr Laura chose the Jewish faith specifically because it had so many rules and would be hard to stray from and very structured. It got me wondering about the Christian faith and wondering if some really need many of the man made rules because of some sort of fear of going off track or getting out of Gods grace.... just wondering. it keeps them in line and therefore 'safe'.

While I would love to respond to this, I will wait and allow Jackie the opportunity to respond before I do. Thank you for sharing Artsylady.

[jackie d]

I remember hearing that Dr Laura chose the Jewish faith specifically because it had so many rules and would be hard to stray from and very structured. It got me wondering about the Christian faith and wondering if some really need many of the man made rules because of some sort of fear of going off track or getting out of Gods grace.... just wondering. it keeps them in line and therefore 'safe'.

artsylady, who is Dr Laura?

I don't think it is so much that they really do need it as much as people teach people that in order to be approved they must work for their approval.

A perfect example is myself. I grew up in a pretty abusive home that required being on our toes at all times. I got very good at following the rules, the better I followed them the less I was noticed and abused, I would like to say that I completely escaped it by being a strict rule follower but I cannot, I can say that I received less than my siblings because of it though. As I grew up I got the label of "good girl" because I did what I could to not make any waves. But I wasn't able to keep up with the changing rules, rules that were sometimes never spoken until I found myself in trouble...I was simply told what the rule was and that I should have known better. After a time I grew so angry about the life we lived and the staunch rules that hung over me all the time that I became rebellious and hateful. Not only that, I became to realize that people didn't just love me for who God made me, there were strings attached to their love and at any given moment they could cut the string and abandon me without notice. So I lost hope in people, myself and didn't even consider that Jesus could really love me after all if people can't love me, how could He? And even today I have to watch myself because it is so easy for me to fall into legalistic thinking and behavior, then I begin to feel a gap between me and the Lord and then the trouble starts because I push myself to be good so that He won't leave me....sometimes it breaks my heart so bad to know that even though I have a relationship with Him, lifes lessons have tainted me and sometimes prevent me from having faith in Him.......

I cannot say that people who decide that living by so many rules would eventually grow weary and angry from trying to keep up. But I would imagine they do. Who wants to serve a God who loves you only if you can follow all the rules and toe the line? And who can accomplish it, not one for we can accomplish nothing in and of ourselves.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches; he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit; for without me ye can do nothing.

Not being aware of the above verse is where people loose heart, can and do fall away. They are disillusioned and bitter toward the Savior because they never got to know Him, only the rules that man made up for them to adhere to and they too would get to go to Heaven......And my oh my, it is a terrible day when those who push the rules discover that one has become rebellious against what the "church" is doing to them. Many a pastor has been removed from a church that was well established before they entered the picture because they bucked the system and the people couldn't handle their cozy little religious lives being upset or disturbed. Much hypocrisy and judgment from congregations of legalistic thinking. It is almost as if they want to keep people from a relationship with Christ. Maybe it isn't a conscious effort but it's there none the less.

blessings

[jackie d]

well I'm only into the fifth chapter of the book and I have laughed more in those chapters than any complete book I've read. The laughter comes from seeing the actions and words of denominational conflicts...the superior attitudes of one denomination over the other. It truly cracks me up...I see Worthy and every other forum I have ever been in right there in front of my face. And the main character's attitude so much like my own at times......for him right now everything in life is just one big <SIGH>....LOL!!

Well, wait until you learn more about his past and you can laugh (or cry) at how you have been through the same thing!

and that is exactly what has happened nebula, I have laughed and I have cried...there's about 100 pages left to read but thus far I can definitely see how relationship verses religion not only has such a comfort in the Lord Jesus, but also how it protects us from much deception....

[Searching soul23]

The things I knew were true about the Lord began to slip from my memory and something else began to settle in: legalisms and religiosity's...

religion comes from two Greek words meaning a return to bondage. Christ came to set the captives free...

If a church doesn't provide me with relationships, is that the church's fault? Is it Christs fault? Did he really free me? Or is it my fault for not living in that freedom? How many relationships would you say it takes to prove that I am free from religious bondage? Any specific kind of relationship?

Jesus is content that I abide in Him. Shouldn't I be content to hear the Gospel, accept His love, and push the rest aside for awhile. After all, the Gospel is a seed. It doesn't turn into fruit over night. But if I tend the soil long enough, I will get the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, meekness, and self-control. Maybe without these fruits, I won't be able to have the kind of relationships that count. Maybe without patience, for instance, I cannot hear God speak because my mind is too cluttered with its own pseudoreligious junk.

Maybe once I radiate love, joy, and peace, people in the church will be attracted to that and I will start having relationships that reflect the rest of the fruits.

I like it simple most of the time. And the simple way to test this theory is to go to a Reformed Church that preaches just the Gospel and wait for God to give me the rest. If I trust him and have peace about the matter, what can go wrong?

[jackie d]

The things I knew were true about the Lord began to slip from my memory and something else began to settle in: legalisms and religiosity's...

religion comes from two Greek words meaning a return to bondage. Christ came to set the captives free...

If a church doesn't provide me with relationships, is that the church's fault? Is it Christs fault? Did he really free me? Or is it my fault for not living in that freedom? How many relationships would you say it takes to prove that I am free from religious bondage? Any specific kind of relationship?

Jesus is content that I abide in Him. Shouldn't I be content to hear the Gospel, accept His love, and push the rest aside for awhile. After all, the Gospel is a seed. It doesn't turn into fruit over night. But if I tend the soil long enough, I will get the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, meekness, and self-control. Maybe without these fruits, I won't be able to have the kind of relationships that count. Maybe without patience, for instance, I cannot hear God speak because my mind is too cluttered with its own pseudoreligious junk.

Maybe once I radiate love, joy, and peace, people in the church will be attracted to that and I will start having relationships that reflect the rest of the fruits.

I like it simple most of the time. And the simple way to test this theory is to go to a Reformed Church that preaches just the Gospel and wait for God to give me the rest. If I trust him and have peace about the matter, what can go wrong?

amen

I think that many of us are quite capable of discerning religion vs relationship with Christ. And by no means should we trek out on our own, all alone, without fellowship amongst ourselves. I believe that it is oh so important though, that we know Christ on an intimate level so that He may teach us the difference between freedom and bondage. And to be able to stand and withstand the many evils of it. That's what is important to me anyhow, to not be sucked in by religion to the point where I have taken on works for salvation...works that are futile that put me in bondage of the law verses being a bond-servant for Christ.

[jackie d]

Jackie D.,

You seem 'disheartened' by all of the religious trappings, formalities, technicalities, gestures and procedures/protocol. What has made you so? Is it that you truly love Him, you long for a deep, intimate, and truly PERSONAL relationship with Him that you are now LOW OF SPIRIT?

Take heart, the Lord has seen the countenance of your heart, and you have shown that the PRESENT heaven is in your heart...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/trans...pirit&t=RSV

(as He told us in HIS sermon).

All throughout history, humanity has replaced the three gifts of God's grace...

1) creation (Father)

2) salvation (Son)

3) Spirit of holiness (Godliness teaching)

with the teachings/efforts of man (the sixth day creation).

but there is much more to God than mankind has chosen to recognize. Mankind has always chosen to INTERPRET scripture to mean whatever is convenient so each person could continue to do as they like (and have peace in their mind about their misdeeds), but Jesus did not come to bring peace on earth, He came to create a division in our hearts and minds between right and wrong/evil...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/trans...;t=RSV&sf=5

Scripture is "the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6), but not the word that we are to live by. It is the introductory doctrine of Christ (Hebrews 6:1) that "babes in Christ, men OF THE FLESH" must first learn when coming to The Lord. The trouble is, man's institutional churches have always felt comfortable STAYING with the doctrines of 'commands/sin/text/law/faith' instead of having the spirit interrupt their "peace". But if the sincere LOVERS of God (not 'FAITH-ERS of God) find no solace in man's teachings, they are ready to discover "the depths of God", 1 Corinthians 2:10. Good students of God's eternal spirit will learn that the word that we are to live by is "the sword of the spirit", Ephesians 6:17) and HEAR His voice, John 10:27.

It is also that we really aren't taught to have a CONSCIENCE and actually become a SELF (for if there is no SELF, there can be no "conscience", and neither can there truly be an intimate PERSONAL relationship). All in all, mankind has always, unwittingly and otherwise, cooperated with the god of confusion to "confuse" our thoughts, but this is also "our natural limitations", Romans 6:19.

Mankind has always enjoyed subjugating each other by pronouncing each other worthy of guilt, shame, humiliation, or intimidation (or some kind of penalty) by using TEXT and "SIN" against each other. It is the sins against PEOPLE that cause harm/suffering that really matters to God, but that we prey on each other seeking subjugation and penalties, not only harms the other person, it blocks God's spirit from our hearts.

The prodigal son was treated by his Father the same as The Lord treats His beloved. It is not our sins against propriety that upset The Lord (table manners, etiquette.etc.).

Since the teachings of man do not satisfy your heart, be encouraged, for The Lord did say that in the last days, He will pour out His spirit...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/trans...pirit&t=RSV

wow! I am so very thankful that you have come and posted in the is thread. God is always faithful to bring what needs to come to help those who seek more than what is set on the table by man and their boundries. Praise the Lord...I love blueletterbible. I don't know that I am low of spirit but I am disheartened by how I see the world has tried to stifle and suffocate the beauty and bounty of our Lord.....how I am so thankful for your lovely post as it HAS ministered to my spirit.

thank you and God bless

(edited to add words that came to mind after posting)

[jackie d]

well maybe I am low in spirit...

Take heart, the Lord has seen the countenance of your heart, and you have shown that the PRESENT heaven is in your heart...

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/search/trans...pirit&t=RSV

(as He told us in HIS sermon).

Mat 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

All throughout history, humanity has replaced the three gifts of God's grace...

1) creation (Father)

2) salvation (Son)

3) Spirit of holiness (Godliness teaching)

with the teachings/efforts of man (the sixth day creation).

but there is much more to God than mankind has chosen to recognize. Mankind has always chosen to INTERPRET scripture to mean whatever is convenient so each person could continue to do as they like (and have peace in their mind about their misdeeds), but Jesus did not come to bring peace on earth, He came to create a division in our hearts and minds between right and wrong/evil...

Luk 12:51 Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division;

Scripture is "the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:6), but not the word that we are to live by. It is the introductory doctrine of Christ (Hebrews 6:1) that "babes in Christ, men OF THE FLESH" must first learn when coming to The Lord. The trouble is, man's institutional churches have always felt comfortable STAYING with the doctrines of 'commands/sin/text/law/faith' instead of having the spirit interrupt their "peace".

2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Eph 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Jhn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

But if the sincere LOVERS of God (not 'FAITH-ERS of God) find no solace in man's teachings, they are ready to discover "the depths of God", 1 Corinthians 2:10. Good students of God's eternal spirit will learn that the word that we are to live by is "the sword of the spirit", Ephesians 6:17) and HEAR His voice, John 10:27.

1Cr 2:10 God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;

It is also that we really aren't taught to have a CONSCIENCE and actually become a SELF (for if there is no SELF, there can be no "conscience", and neither can there truly be an intimate PERSONAL relationship). All in all, mankind has always, unwittingly and otherwise, cooperated with the god of confusion to "confuse" our thoughts, but this is also "our natural limitations", Romans 6:19.

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.

Since the teachings of man do not satisfy your heart, be encouraged, for The Lord did say that in the last days, He will pour out His spirit...

Eze 39:29 and I will not hide my face any more from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, says the Lord GOD."

Joe 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.

Joe 2:29 Even upon the menservants and maidservants in those days, I will pour out my spirit.

Act 2:17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Act 2:18 yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.

and amen

[jackie d]

It is encouraging for me to know that people are realizing the insufficiency of 'status quo' devotions to The Lord, and if they could only release themselves from the grip of man's teachings, they could realize such a warm, intimate relationship with the one true living God.

it is what I long for more than anything in my life