intersting article in legalism in the church

[artsylady]

An attitude that shows fruit of the spirit~

dressing modestly out of love for brothers in Christ.

How many times does she have to tell you that she DOES dress modestly? THis is utterly ridiculous!

An attitude that is hostile and does not show fruit of the spirit~

welll he must be a pervert and that ain't my problem!

Jackie did not say these words and I don't see much difference in the attitude presented by Vickilynn in post 140 where she says "I am going to put forth an effort to dress and carry myself modestly, and if a man still lusts, oh well. I tried. "

I could also rephrase her words to say "he must be a pervert and it aint my problem!", but it's understood that the trying is the important part and you simply do not wish to see this from our point of view. You say "We have no control over what a man thinks" and we say the same thing, but somehow you're right and we're wrong in saying the very same thing and we are JUDGED.

Take about a speck in your eye.

And you have made up a fruit of the spirit that isn't there at all. The Bible calls it a sin to add to his word.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control (and control over what others think despite your best efforts- inserted)

Against such things there is no law.

So you're saying Jackie doesn't demonstrate the fruit of the spirit how?

Actually I'm out of this fruitless meaningless discussion. Your judgement and unfair accusations are way too far out of line.

[Guest shiloh357]

Your argument is not logical, or Biblical.

Neither is the argument that pants cause men to lust and skirts don't. The words "skirt" and "pants" are not in the Bible.

"Modest" is.

You are barking up the wrong tree. I'm not sure if it was you but someone is not even arguing fairly here because they've added the part about low rise, belly button showing and cleavage showing to the mix - very unfair. We could say things like 'mini skirt" or 'tight skirt" but don't stoop.

Do a survery - ask men what is more 'sexy' - pants or a skirt ? You'll get mixed reviews and it would not surprise me if more said 'skirt'. We know they would all say it depends on HOW the person is dressing as well, a point which you seem to ignore.

Actually, can some men respond to this?

You do make a good point. Lust is the product of a character flaw in men and women. But speaking to "men" issue...

Men will lust because men will lust and dressing a certain way is not going to dissuade it. I am speaking of both Christian and nonChristian men. The problem is not so much with how women dress, but with unrenewed minds on the part of men. A man with a mind renewed mind not only will not lust after a woman, but an immodest woman would be offensive to him.

If a man is prone to lust, he will do so and it really doesn't matter how a woman is dressed. The whole "modesty" thing may be good for a woman's conscience, but if she thinks she is doing ANYTHING to prevent being lusted after on those grounds alone, she is just deceiving herself. Men do not need to see tight jeans or low cut shirts in order to lust. Women tend to underestimate men in this area.

If you don't want a guy to lust after you, then do what you can to make yourself unattractive. Gain about 100 pounds or more, stop washing your hair or showering for the next six weeks, walk around town in a shower cap and a mu-mu, don't brush your teeth, and spend your days sitting around watching soap operas smelling like a combination of body odor, ciggarette smoke and urine.

That should pretty much kill any chances that a man will lust after you.

[Guest Biblicist]

It is true, the way a woman dresses does not stop a man with a sinful mind. Even rape victims have been accused of "dressing" seductivly, or acting provocativly, when those are not the cause at all.

Below you will find statistics, information and studies regarding the relation of rape and the blame on clothing.

Utah State University Sexual Assault and Anti Violence Information

Myth: Rape victims provoke the attach by wearing provocative clothing

- A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only

4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part of the victim.

In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple as a glance).

- Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.

- Victims range in age from days old to those in their nineties, hardly provocative dressers.

Utah State University http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf

Myths and Facts about Sexual Assault

"You may have heard mistaken ideas about the crimes of rape and sexual

assault. Here are some of the myths followed by the real facts as

reported by the U.S. Department of Justice.

Myth: Victims provoke sexual assaults when they dress provocatively or

act in a promiscuous manner.

Fact: Rape and sexual assault are crimes of violence and control that

stem from a person's determination to exercise power over another.

Neither provocative dress nor promiscuous behavior are invitations for

unwanted sexual activity. Forcing someone to engage in non-consensual

sexual activity is sexual assault, regardless of the way that person

dresses or acts."

Sonoma State University: Women's Resource Center

http://www.sonoma.edu/campuslife/sv/myth.htm

MYTH: Provocative dress can cause a rape.

FACT: Victims are chosen because of their vulnerability, not because

they are sexually provocative.

Wichita State University

http://webs.wichita.edu/?u=police&p=/sexual_assault/

This thread has veered way off course from the OP! It's so amazing since that never happens.

We should choose to follow God's commands because we love Him.

[Emily~Anne]

Your argument is not logical, or Biblical.

Neither is the argument that pants cause men to lust and skirts don't. The words "skirt" and "pants" are not in the Bible.

"Modest" is.

You are barking up the wrong tree. I'm not sure if it was you but someone is not even arguing fairly here because they've added the part about low rise, belly button showing and cleavage showing to the mix - very unfair. We could say things like 'mini skirt" or 'tight skirt" but don't stoop.

Do a survery - ask men what is more 'sexy' - pants or a skirt ? You'll get mixed reviews and it would not surprise me if more said 'skirt'. We know they would all say it depends on HOW the person is dressing as well, a point which you seem to ignore.

Actually, can some men respond to this?

pssst...who made the blanket statement that skirts are modest and pants aren't?

[Emily~Anne]

An attitude that shows fruit of the spirit~

dressing modestly out of love for brothers in Christ.

How many times does she have to tell you that she DOES dress modestly? THis is utterly ridiculous!

An attitude that is hostile and does not show fruit of the spirit~

welll he must be a pervert and that ain't my problem!

Jackie did not say these words and I don't see much difference in the attitude presented by Vickilynn in post 140 where she says "I am going to put forth an effort to dress and carry myself modestly, and if a man still lusts, oh well. I tried. "

I could also rephrase her words to say "he must be a pervert and it aint my problem!", but it's understood that the trying is the important part and you simply do not wish to see this from our point of view. You say "We have no control over what a man thinks" and we say the same thing, but somehow you're right and we're wrong in saying the very same thing and we are JUDGED.

Take about a speck in your eye.

And you have made up a fruit of the spirit that isn't there at all. The Bible calls it a sin to add to his word.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control (and control over what others think despite your best efforts- inserted)

Against such things there is no law.

So you're saying Jackie doesn't demonstrate the fruit of the spirit how?

Actually I'm out of this fruitless meaningless discussion. Your judgement and unfair accusations are way too far out of line.

The part in bold, did I say Jackie said that? No I did not, but she did however say, "maybe that is the real issue here women are threatened by other women wearing jeans because they fear their husbands are letches or something

[traveller]

This thread has evolved into the modest dress thread that was closed.