intersting article in legalism in the church

[Guest Biblicist]

I'm getting the idea that counseling someone in the proper manner of doing something, that may be against their conscience, would be legalistic.

Then it would be legalistic to counsil someone in the proper aspect of prayer, reading their Bibles and attending regular church services too. Wouldn't want to offend the weaker brother.

<sigh>

Sort of limits the scope of Pastor's messages...."Just love one another, and love God. Be good and all will be well."

[Vickilynn]

I think the problem with legalism isn't so much the person themselves, who feels for whatever reason a woman can't wear pants to church or listen to Christian music. If they feel this way, they shouldn't do this. The problem lies with them projecting their beliefs about these debatable matters onto others. You may say these are not debatable matters, but in fact, they are. We continue over and over to debate them, don't we?

Shalom Artsy,

I see where you're coming from, but I see the opposite happening over and over.

I see people sharing what THEY believe (not saying others have to agree) and we see people getting all defensive and attacking the person for sharing THEIR convictions and saying the person is laying guilt and a bunch of other baloney.

What happens is, we have someone who shares THEIR convictions and people come unglued and we see their rebellious flesh rise, even though the person isn't telling ANYONE else to adhere to their convictions, we see people getting defensive.

Now, if you'll look over the closed thread on women and pants, you will see exactly that. Someone posted that THEIR belief was that women should not wear pants. NO PLACE did that person ever say that anyone else had to believe the same, but we saw vicious attacks, false allegations and putrid displays of flesh because people for defensive. I personally believe they got convicted and rebelled, but that just my opinion.

No one laid any guilt. No one placed any chains of bondage and no one forced their beliefs. NO ONE judged another woman for wearing pants, that is an out and out lie.

What we saw was people stringing up someone for sharing THEIR own convictions.

That is the real problem. Not legalism, but rather people not being given the grace to share their own convictions without being accused of lies and watching people let their defensive flesh rule over the grace to share differing convictions.

[Vickilynn]

If I have the prayer wrong, someone please correct me.

Shalom Artsy,

<sigh>

Yes, you have the prayer ALL wrong, but you know, I see this misconception so much here and I wonder if it's really worthy correcting the misconceptions over and over. Seems like no one really wants to know the truth.

[Guest Biblicist]

When someone can post, with the name date and time, anyone that said that wearing pants, jeans or any other type of casual dress is a sin for women, then we can continue having this conversation.

I think I agree with Emily~Anne, there is no learning going on about these topics. What's the use?

[Vickilynn]

When someone can post, with the name date and time, anyone that said that wearing pants, jeans or any other type of casual dress is a sin for women, then we can continue having this conversation.

Shalom Bibs,

EXACTLY!! NO one said it except those who argued against it. It was an argument never raised.

Some people are so defensive and their flesh SO in control that they are creating this argument and arguing against it! Again, that could be indicative of a stronghold in that person's life where they elevate their attire over humbly laying it down for G-d.

But, the point is, that's not what was said, in any way shape or form, but we saw the defensive and disgusting attacks come out at the THOUGHT of someone not wearing their precious, beloved pants. Now, that's something to worry about.

[Vickilynn]

I think I agree with Emily~Anne, there is no learning going on about these topics. What's the use?

Shalom Bibs,

I don't want to see Emily Anne go anyplace. Her posts are a breath of fresh air.

The use is that lies need to be combated with the truth. When people get defensive over an argument that HASN'T been raised, it could show they are really being convicted of their sin and idolatry. You see people's flesh rises up when it's strongholds are threatened, even if that threat comes from themselves and not the person posting.

No Bibs, the Bible says:

2 Thessalonians 3:

13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

[Vickilynn]

I am wondering what is up with the extreme defensiveness on the pants versus/dresses issue? I dont think anyone here, including myself, believes or stated that wearing pants is sin. So why the dwelling on arguing that it is ok to wear pants? Do we not all agree on that?

Shalom Emily Anne,

I see this quite a bit actually. I believe it is because people are being convicted of their actions and how they elevate things to idol position and when someone comes along and posts their convictions, the person who is convicted lashes out in the flesh against the person. Even though the person NEVER says that anyone else must adhere to their convictions, it is taken that way because of the flesh and sometimes even because that thing has a hold on someone and they refuse to lay it down for G-d. That makes it an idol.

I've seen it over and over whenever a Christian's "freedoms" are questioned. However, if we are not willing to lay down those freedoms for G-d or for our weaker brother, I believe that shows the THING is in the place of G-d, which makes it an idol.

But, the good news is, that usually changes with maturity. Sometimes not, but most times.

Oh, and before anyone think I am talking about a particular person or topic, I am not. These are my observations as a Christian of 30 years and one who has been on message boards for more than a decade.

[Guest Biblicist]

I think I agree with Emily~Anne, there is no learning going on about these topics. What's the use?

Shalom Bibs,

I don't want to see Emily Anne go anyplace. Her posts are a breath of fresh air.

The use is that lies need to be combated with the truth. When people get defensive over an argument that HASN'T been raised, it could show they are really being convicted of their sin and idolatry. You see people's flesh rises up when it's strongholds are threatened, even if that threat comes from themselves and not the person posting.

No Bibs, the Bible says:

2 Thessalonians 3:

13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Sometimes I do grow weary. I've not been feeling very well the past week as it is and this conversation constantly comes back to the same foolish argument, that was never an argument to begin with.

[Vickilynn]

I think I agree with Emily~Anne, there is no learning going on about these topics. What's the use?

Shalom Bibs,

I don't want to see Emily Anne go anyplace. Her posts are a breath of fresh air.

The use is that lies need to be combated with the truth. When people get defensive over an argument that HASN'T been raised, it could show they are really being convicted of their sin and idolatry. You see people's flesh rises up when it's strongholds are threatened, even if that threat comes from themselves and not the person posting.

No Bibs, the Bible says:

2 Thessalonians 3:

13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Sometimes I do grow weary. I've not been feeling very well the past week as it is and this conversation constantly comes back to the same foolish argument, that was never an argument to begin with.

Shalom Bibs,

Bless your heart. I pray you feel better soon. I do understand your weariness in doing good and doing right, especially when there are people arguing things that were never said. It's very wearying to constantly fight misconceptions and false accusations.

BUT, I believe that's EXACTLY why Paul wrote this to Christians to keep on telling the truth against the misrepresentations. Someone is out there reading who needs to hear the truth. That's who I think about. Not the ones bent on arguing and posting ungracious personal attacks. But the ones who are quietly reading and who NEED for us to keep on telling the truth from G-d word, for them.

I pray for G-d's healing hand to touch you today Bibs. Much love dear sister.

[Richard_yaash]

Yes, exactly. I