intersting article in legalism in the church

[Vickilynn]

legalism has nothing to do with obeying God or His law.

It has everything to do with control or manipulation according to a moral standard or imagined societal norm.

Morality and righteousness aren't always the same thing. One can be moral by societal standards and unrighteous by God's standard.

legalism is being someone else's conscience for them.

It isn't having rules...it is imposing them on someone else.

Shalom Yod,

Oh, you mean like telling people that if they gamble they are sinning?

Yeah, I see your point.

Oh, that's another thread, my bad!

[Vickilynn]

Shalom,

A good article here: What Is Legalism?

Excerpt:

Legalism, definition number five: "1. Close adherence to law; strict conformity to law" (New Illustrated Webster's Dictionary of the English Language, pg. 559). While the Christian does not believe he has earned salvation, he does pay strict attention to God's law and commandments (Lk. 17: 10; Gal. 6: 2, Jas. 1: 22-25, 2: 1-13). It should be known and appreciated that Jesus never condemned or dissuaded close attention to law, even minute laws. Jesus taught adherence to all of God's laws:

In closing, I would suggest, based on the foregoing, that the term "legalism" can have both bad and good nuances. Simply considering the letter of the law, believing and teaching that salvation is a result of man's good works, or that man is saved without grace constitute legalism in the terrible sense of the term. Nonetheless, believing and teaching that the Christian must comply with God's laws out of love for God is not sinful but good and required. To simplistically say that all who stress conformity to law are legalists and, therefore, bad, is to sinfully indict the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (I Sam. 15 22, 23; Matt. 7: 21-27; I Jn. 5: 3). I shall close by quoting the inspired apostle John, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word; in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (I Jn. 2: 3-5).

[Vickilynn]

I posted this on my blog about a week ago:

The fact is, unless any of us are as holy and perfect as God,(and none of us are, not even Mother Teresa) it does not matter how many kind deeds we did, or how selfless we were, we do not go to heaven. God is holy and perfect. We are not. We are not fit for heaven. We are fallen. We all fall short of the glory of God. But God so loved the world, that he sent his only son, pure and blameless, to take our punishment. And unless we put our faith in Jesus alone, and not in our good works which can never measure up to God

[Emily~Anne]

I myself have been talking about dying to self for GOD, not for man. As I die to myself, a void is created within me, I immediately fill that with Jesus Christ. Each day as I grow, there is less of me, and more of Jesus. The way to grow in Christ is to die to self. That is not legalism.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Shalom Emily Anne,

I have jackie on Ignore, so I don't see her posts unless you quote them, but I gather she is talking about the "other" thread, not this one. That's why you're confused at her words. Don't worry though, what you're saying and the context you are saying it in is correct.

Can you please specify what kind of 'silly little rules'? Otherwise, we dont know exactly what you are talking about. Also, let's say for example, Vickilynn teaches me some ways to be a better keeper at home, in a non critical spirit. Is she being legalistic? Would she be 'imposing silly little rules' on me?

LOL! I think you asked the wrong person!

I'll answer that. The answer is no. BTW, it doesn't matter what someone else thinks, it matters what G-D says.

I am commanded to do as you describe in Titus 2:3-5 If someone has a problem with that, it a problem with the Scriptures, not with me.

3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

Actually she specifically said it's all over THIS thread. I have re-read, and re-read, I cant find them. *shrug* I think you have the right idea with the 'ignore' feature. I will be doing that as well.

[Vickilynn]

Actually she specifically said it's all over THIS thread. I have re-read, and re-read, I cant find them. *shrug* I think you have the right idea with the 'ignore' feature. I will be doing that as well.

Shalom Emily Anne,

2 Thessalonians 3:13-16

13As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good.

14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

[Vickilynn]

Some people exalt their freedoms so much that they can't see the forest for the trees in the bigger spiritual picture of preferring others over themselves. We cannot do away with necessary rules, but we must be careful not to place our personal convictions upon anyone else, AND we must be willing to lay down our personal convictions if they cause another to stumble.

Rules can be a good thing and they should not be summarily ignored. They could have value.

Legalism is not rules. It is making man-made rules the same as Law.

What we see here all too often is people getting their knickers in a knot when someone posts THEIR convictions (not saying anyone else has to adher by them),but people get defensive and cry "legalism" and all that blather. Sorry, but that's not true. Just by someone posting THEIR beliefs, in no way places any burden on anyone else to agree and adhere. However, we ARE commanded to lay down our freedoms if they cause another to stumble.

[Guest Biblicist]

Jackie, please, if you could, would you post those times when anyone has said that "doing" or not doing any of those things is sinful? I don't really know who you may be refering to about not listening to certain types of music? And truly, did anyone here on Worthyboards tell you that you should follow their rules instead of God's? I truly don't see anyone here trying to put other's in bondage to laws that are unnecessary.

God's word does clearly tell us that we are responsible for our actions causing other's to stumble. To behave or dress in a manner that would cause someone else to stumble is a sin.

Matthew 18

6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Romans 14

19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

Loving God's law is the peace. Following in his precepts is the freedom.

Psalm 119

164 Seven times a day I praise you

for your righteous laws.

165 Great peace have they who love your law,

and nothing can make them stumble.

166 I wait for your salvation, O LORD,

and I follow your commands.

Have you ever read all of the laws in God's word, not just the ones in the New Testament, but the Mosaic Law? YIKES! The freedom we have is that we can not possibly follow all of those laws, however, we are free in Christ to do our best to follow the laws Jesus Christ asks us to and let the Blood of the Spotless Lamb cover the rest. We are to follow God's laws because we love him.

You follow laws every day. Why? Because you are commanded to by your state. Do you break those laws? Sure. We all do. [i exceede speed limit on a regular basis ] The difference between God's law and human laws is that if we break God's Law and ask forgiveness, we are forgiven. The punishment is paid. We are FREE! Do you understand?

[Guest shiloh357]

Legalism is not a biblical word. There is no word for it in the Greek of the New Testament. It is not even a biblical concept.

The Bible draws a distinction between the letter vs. spirit of the Law. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

If you are sitting at a stoplight at an intersection on an otherwise empty street in the left turn lane, you are to remain stopped even if no cars are coming until the light turns green. That is the letter of the law. However, while sitting in your car waiting for the light to turn green, you suddenly hear a horn blaring behind you, and in your rear view mirror, you see an an 18-wheeler veering out of control headed straight for you. It is obvious that the driver does not have control of the vehicle and cannot stop either, and if you remain where you are, there is a good chance you will be killed.

Now, the letter of the law says you MUST remain stopped until the light turns green. However, if you don't move through intersection you will die. In this case, the letter of the law is death to you. The spirit of the law of the stoplight however, is safety. That is why it is there, to keep you and other drivers safe.

The law on the books say nothing about this situation. It does not say anywhere that it is okay under any circumstances to run a red light. Yet, one can keep the spirit of the law, even if one must violate the letter of it.

What a lot of people label as "legalism" is really nothing more than cult-like control.

[Guest Biblicist]

I think maybe we need to go back and review the article, since that is what this thread is all about.

Religious Legalism and it's adverse effects on Christians ~ Michael J. Wedge

First of all this article is based on one man's view of legalism coming from a Catholic background.

Since man is imperfect and, man created religion as a set of guidelines to worship God, religion is imperfect.

What is religion?

1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

Man created the set of beliefs that we base our faith upon? No, our beliefs are based upon God's Word.

The list he gives are rules set down by many cults. CULTS. Not true Bible Believing, God fearing churches. There is a BIG difference! These types of groups [i won't call them churches so as not to confuse] are lead by false leaders/teachers. False teachers are NOT of God (1 Timothy 1 & 2 Peter 2).

From reading his article, he is lumping Churches together with Cults and trying to say they are the same thing. Saddly this summation is in error. Churches that enforce God's Word are not cults.

A typical tactic would be to word sermons like this:

"What if you walk out this door and die. You may never get salvation and thus, you will burn in hell forever."

Or, guilt:

"You need to get right with God. You are a sinner and fall short. Get your life right now."

Altar calls are another example of how to use a guilt-ridden sermon to entice new converts.

These statements are true, and from God's word. We will not get salvation if we die without Christ, we need to get right with God and we are sinners that fall short of the Glory of God. They are not guilt ridden sermons, they are Truth. A pastor who does not talk about his congregations need for the Saviour is a bad pastor, ignoring our most basic need!

I can understand where this man is coming from, my father came from a Catholic background and they do have many many "man-made" rules and they do use a large amount of guilt. But I feel his article is very one sided. And, saddly, short sighted.

There are many cults out there that enforce one bible version, one political stand, one way of dressing, one type of music, one way of worshiping, one way of daily activities. These are not churches. And that is NOT religion.

[Guest Biblicist]

Legalism is not a biblical word. There is no word for it in the Greek of the New Testament. It is not even a biblical concept.

The Bible draws a distinction between the letter vs. spirit of the Law. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

If you are sitting at a stoplight at an intersection on an otherwise empty street in the left turn lane, you are to remain stopped even if no cars are coming until the light turns green. That is the letter of the law. However, while sitting in your car waiting for the light to turn green, you suddenly hear a horn blaring behind you, and in your rear view mirror, you see an an 18-wheeler veering out of control headed straight for you. It is obvious that the driver does not have control of the vehicle and cannot stop either, and if you remain where you are, there is a good chance you will be killed.

Now, the letter of the law says you MUST remain stopped until the light turns green. However, if you don't move through intersection you will die. In this case, the letter of the law is death to you. The spirit of the law of the stoplight however, is safety. That is why it is there, to keep you and other drivers safe.

The law on the books say nothing about this situation. It does not say anywhere that it is okay under any circumstances to run a red light. Yet, one can keep the spirit of the law, even if one must violate the letter of it.

What a lot of people label as "legalism" is really nothing more than cult-like control.

Hey, that was a really good analogy. Thanks Shiloh.