Mystery Babylon

[Mazra]

Marza,

Please explain how the last part of verse 7 in Revelation 18 fits with your belief that NY City is Mystery Babylon

...for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

What does it mean that she truly believes she is a queen?

A queen is married to the king. Who is the king?

Hi Old Timer,

Since when does a Queen have to have a King? There have been plenty of examples in our history of Queens that had no King. Who is the present King of England? Again you read way too much into these verses that simply are not there.

A harlot is seen as a woman. A female ruler is known as a Queen. I see the verse you quoted as simply meaning that the city has not been conquered and is prideful in its roll as a great world capital. New York City has not been conquered. When it fell to the British during the American revolution, many of its citizens were British loyalist. Before 911 there was an air of invulnerability. 911 has shattered this.

Listen Old Timer, we are not going to agree. You are so entrenched in your point of view that you will not see mine; and quite frankly I am the same way. I am convinced that New York City is the harlot of Babylon, and I am equally convinced it is not a false religion or the Roman Catholic Church.

Thank you for your time.

Shalom,

Mazra

[Old Timer]

One last remark and then bye

The harlot says she is a queen and is no widow. Therefore there is a king!

If your theory can't find the king I would suggest you re-examine your theory.

[Mazra]

And you are still focused on the wrong thing. The issue is not "where." The issue is what, what Mystery Babylon is. It is a corrupt spirtual system that has seduced the people of the earth.

Hi Cobalt1959,

The same could be said to you, in that you are focusing on the wrong thing. This issue is a CITY. How many times does the scriptures has to call Mystery Babylon a city before people will see it is just a city? It is not a corrupt spiritual system. It is not a false religion. It is not an aberrant Christian denomination. It is a city that rules the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18). And in all the history of mankind only one such city has contained a government that did this, New York City and the United Nations.

Shalom,

Mazra

Edited March 4, 2008 by Mazra

[Mazra]

One last remark and then bye

The harlot says she is a queen and is no widow. Therefore there is a king!

If your theory can't find the king I would suggest you re-examine your theory.

Hi Old Timer,

Then who do you think is her King?

Anything you would say would be conjecture though since the only reference to kings is in the heads of the beast, and the scripture clearly indicates that the beast is against the harlot (Rev 17:16), and not the harlot's husband. Since when does harlots have husbands anyway.

As a minor point, is the Queen of England married? Is her husband King? I believe the verse means the harlot does not know loss or suffering and has not been conquered. But then that is only conjecture on my part, since I really do not know the Apostle John's intention with this verse and neither do you. I would rather look to the clear verses or clues about a city, the merchants, the sailors, the many waters, and the city's ruling over the kings of the earth to the identity of Mystery Babylon.

Shalom,

Mazra

Edited March 4, 2008 by Mazra

[Old Timer]

Mazra, I had said farewell (bye) but since you ask,

Edited March 4, 2008 by Old Timer

[Mazra]

If you still believe that New York City is Mystery Babylon then, based on Rev. 18:4, you should be urging every Christian that lives in New York to flee to some other place.

Hi Old Timer,

I do! Not only in my original post to this thread, but elsewhere in other writings, I do encourage believers both Jew and Christian to flee from New York City. 911 may be just the beginning of a series of plagues that will befall the city. Rev. 18:4 is just another point that this is a place and not a religion. Plagues are not the kind of thing to come upon a religion. But plagues will effect a city. And even if Rome was destroyed utterly, that would not put an end to the Roman Catholic Church. It would become headquartered in some other predominantly Roman Catholic city like Madrid or Sao Paulo. And to what purpose? The RCC with all its faults still holds to one essential truth, and that is that Jesus is Lord. That is more than the Jehovah Witness can claim. I for one will not attack the body of Messiah. Not only does it not fulfill the prophecy, it is just plain wrong.

In reality I do not write this for your benefit. It is very clear that there is nothing I could write to sway you; but I write this to those whose minds are not certain in this area. Some of them may live in the environs of New York City and will have to pray and ask G-d to discern if what I write is Biblical and makes sense. I am just a messenger. Many will ignore this, and like in your case, will already have their minds made up. I can only put the message out there. It is up to each individual to do as they wish with this information.

I encourage everone to test what is said in light of scripture for both your theories as well as mine

Shalom,

Mazra

As an editional edit you mentioned the bride groom verse from Rev. 18

23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.

The voice of bridegroom and bride

will never be heard in you again.

Your merchants were the world's great men.

These verses are concerning the city after it has been destroyed by the great mill stone thrown in to the sea. The voice of bridegroom and bride in nothing more than a real bridegroom and bride. The happy event of marriage will not be heard in the city again, just like the harpist and other musicians will not be heard. But I added one more verse concerning the merchants being the world's great men. Since when did the Roman Catholic Church have merchants that the world would consider great men? New York City could claim many great merchants from Alexander Hamilton to Rockefeller to Trump. But name one great Roman Catholic Church merchant? The RCC just does not fit the prophecy.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Mazra

[Ephesians2-8]

Wow, this thread is pretty old and I fear no one will see my comments here, but its an interesting thread.

The subject of "Mystery Babylon" has been hotly debated in online forums for several years now with many different identity theories being tossed around. The NYC theory is a fairly recent theory, relatively speaking. It's been around for about 20 years or so, although the idea of America being Babylon was first tossed around by the late Dr. Frank Logsdon who wrote a very short book asking the question if maybe America was Mystery Babylon. His book "Is the USA In Bible Prophecy" was published in 1968.

Perhaps the very best book on the theory of identifying Babylon as America and not NYC is the 2 volume work of more than 600 pages, with extensive, scholastic research entitled: "America, The Babylon" by R.A. Coombes. Dr. Mark Hitchcock (Dallas Seminary professor) in his book "Is America in Bible Prophecy?" cites Coombes' work as the most definitive on the theory regarding America as the Babylon of prophecy. Hitchcock quotes Coombes' work extensively and does not refute the notion. Instead, Hitchcock ignores Coombes' salient points and proceeds to explain in the remaining 70 pages of his short book why he thinks Iraq is Mystery Babylon.

I should point out that Coombes' does have support from former seminary professor Dr. Frederick Fogle of Grace Theological Seminary who cites Coombes' work in his book "A Road Map to the Future." Fogle gives Coombes' research high marks.

Another Dallas Seminary professor, Dr. Dan Wallace has commented in the past on the possibility that perhaps Babylon is Washington, D.C. or America. Dr. Charles Ryrie - The Ryrie Study Bible - and retired professor from Dallas Seminary has privately commented that he has grave doubts about identifying Babylon as Rome, the RCC or Iraq. He stated that the America as Babylon theory seems highly intriguing as a possibility, but that he'd not done enough study or research to form an opinion. I don't know that he'd read Coombes' book or not.

Another good author on prophecy, Peter Goodgame in his book "Red Moon Rising" cites Coombes' research and draws similar conclusions as have a few other authors.

One thing I will say for myself - there is a great lack of scholarship by most prophecy commentators on the subject and a lot of faulty assumptions, starting with the tremendous errors of Alexander Hislop, who was either an idiot or a deliberate falsifier of information on ancient Babylon and connections to the RCC.

[Guest]

Tale Of Two Cities

The Dark City Of The Mad

Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about.

Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.

Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

Jeremiah 51:1-7

Forever Gone

And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Revelation 18:1-5

The City Of Light

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 21:22-25

The City Of God

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:1-3

Forever Home

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:4-5

If You Call

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:32

If You Believe

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job 19:25-27

If You Trust His Word

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING OF KINGS

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. Isaiah 61:10

[Ephesians2-8]

How would John's readers have understood this passage? Any "interpretation" that isn't anchored to the understanding of the original audience is meaningless. I seriously doubt John knew or cared anything about New York City. He was more concerned about the immediate events of his own day, under Roman rule with its cult of emperor-worship. What would be the point of cryptically forecasting events thousands of years in his, John's, future?

[Guest]

How would John's readers have understood this passage? Any "interpretation" that isn't anchored to the understanding of the original audience is meaningless. I seriously doubt John knew or cared anything about New York City. He was more concerned about the immediate events of his own day, under Roman rule with its cult of emperor-worship. What would be the point of cryptically forecasting events thousands of years in his, John's, future?

Folks From Places Like Texas Just Might Agree With You

What John Knew

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

John 21:4

We Know

Chain Of Communication

From God To Jesus To Brother John

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Revelation 1:1

From John About Jesus To Us

Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 1:2

From Our Eyes To Our Ears

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 1:3

To Our Heart, Hope

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Revelation 22:20

Jesus Comes!