Can believers be un-converted?

[exrockstar]

What about the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins in Mathew 25 1-13. The virgins represent those who have been washed clean. Only half of them watched for the Bridegroom and kept their lamps full. In verse 12 we see where the Bridegroom stated "Verily I say unto you I know you not."

This has nothing to do with unsalvation. the last verse says:

13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. (WHEN CHRIST RETURNS)

This deals with the wedding between Christ and His church.

We also can't forget in John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me. " v.28 "And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." V.29 "My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them ouy of my Father's hand." Clearly from v. 27 we can see that Jesus is refering to the sheep who FOLLOW HIM.

this has nothing to do with unsalvation. Understand that Christ was not accepted with open arms when arrived.

So to tell the Jews "follow me" is not just about "being good." It's about a religious culture they (and their ancestors) have been following

for centuries. Then here comes Christ who's going to say "follow me." is it "follow me" as in do as the bible tells you? No because the New Testament bible

hasnt been written yet. It's a "follow me" as accept Christ as your saviour. The Jews went against the grain when they followed Jesus.

You go against the grain when you have many beliefs or religious to accept but you accept one where Christ is your saviour.

This is not unsalvation.

This was just assurance of who Christ said He was. verse 25 just said

"Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,

26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

[deut31:12]

It doesn't mean that I was never a Christian nor that I was ever saved. It means that AFTER I was saved I wasn't completely converted to the life of Christianity and chose the pleasures of this life over God.

I would maintain that one, in your example, was never saved. Perhaps this is an example of a person who will hear from Christ on judgement day "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." Matthew 7:23 (WEB) Whether your example or mine, the outcome is the same; eternal seperation from God.

That isn't true. We are not 100% converted when we are born again. We are saved, but we do not have 100% understanding, knowledge, and wisdom that Christianity offers. That is why we are told to study and add to our faith.

There are many people who hear the word that Jesus is our savior, accept it, and get saved, but when they start learning what Christianity is all about and that they have to take up their crosses and follow Jesus they choose rather to keep their sin over giving it up for the cause of Christ. This doesn't make then "never saved". They chose rather to keep their lives rather than lose it for Christ.

You can have people who are sincere in making Jesus their savior, but when they find out what kind of life we need to live they don't want it because they would rather keep their sins. This doesn't mean that they were never saved. It means they are now "children of disobedience".

[stacey c]

Exrockstar, what's the debate here? I know exactly what the parable of the virgins is about. It is fortelling the marriage of the church and Christ. Let's not forget to mention that the ten virgins represent those who have been washed, and were spotless for the Bridegroom. But only 5 virgins kept their lamps full of the oil. All through scripture we see that the oil represents the Holy Spirit. When the Bride groom came for his bride only he saw that only half of them were ready to go with him. He shut the door and when they said "let us in" the bridegroom told them "I know you not." As for the scriptures in John we know it has nothing to do with "being good." We must have a personal, on going relationship with the Lord. The Bible is not our "god", in brings us into the knowledge of who Christ is personally for each of us. Yes, we must come to salvation, but we also need to follow Him. Even though the context of different passages were set more for that era it is still the road map for us today. We cannot agree with one scripture and dismiss the next as being "just for back then." We either believe all of it or none of it. Have I ever found a scripture that clearly used the term "unsaved"? No. But there are plenty that tell me Imust keep an on going relationship with my Saviour if I hope to spend eterity with Him. Do I believe someone can still my salvation? No. But can I leave my relationship with Him behind to the point that He says " I know you not" yes. Your sister in Christ Stacey

[Guest LadyC]

reread the passages closely a few times. there isn't an unsalvation issue here.

It's just staying to remain in Him or be cut.

perhaps you do not understand the defintion of REMAIN? to remain somewhere, one must have been there to begin with.

Now, remember the story of Moses and how he spoke to the people? At the end of

the journey before entering the promiseland, Moses struck the rock (Numbers 20:11). God told him to him

to speak the rock (Numb 20:8).

God told Moses he could not enter the promise land and it was so.

Now....Moses was cut from the vine.

incorrect. the promised land was never the vine.

[Rick-Parker]

It doesn't mean that I was never a Christian nor that I was ever saved. It means that AFTER I was saved I wasn't completely converted to the life of Christianity and chose the pleasures of this life over God.

I would maintain that one, in your example, was never saved. Perhaps this is an example of a person who will hear from Christ on judgement day "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity." Matthew 7:23 (WEB) Whether your example or mine, the outcome is the same; eternal seperation from God.

That isn't true. We are not 100% converted when we are born again. We are saved, but we do not have 100% understanding, knowledge, and wisdom that Christianity offers. That is why we are told to study and add to our faith.

There are many people who hear the word that Jesus is our savior, accept it, and get saved, but when they start learning what Christianity is all about and that they have to take up their crosses and follow Jesus they choose rather to keep their sin over giving it up for the cause of Christ. This doesn't make then "never saved". They chose rather to keep their lives rather than lose it for Christ.

You can have people who are sincere in making Jesus their savior, but when they find out what kind of life we need to live they don't want it because they would rather keep their sins. This doesn't mean that they were never saved. It means they are now "children of disobedience".

In the examples you give, the person is "accepting salvation" with their emotions and not their mind and soul. "Real" surrender comes when the surrenderer knows what is required. That doesn't mean that they know much about salvation, but they do know they have to follow him, and change their lives.

I, myself was 100% converted when I accepted Christ. I didn't have 100% understanding of what was required of me; I wanted to do it. That is how you know you are saved. Salvation does not happen in a vacuum. I don't know of anyone who just had a epiphany, says "Ahah! Jesus! Sounds like an idea. I want some of that." Does anyone?

[Smalcald]

That's just it faith is often a process. We don't know when God really started to work in our lives to bring us to faith, possibly when we are in the womb. So can this process be derailed not by God, but by our refusal to take part in what is offered in the process of coming to faith?

The problem in my mind is the focus on some magic one time event of conversion, which I am not denying happens, but I just don't think it is a formula that neat and clean.

[exrockstar]

reread the passages closely a few times. there isn't an unsalvation issue here.

It's just staying to remain in Him or be cut.

perhaps you do not understand the defintion of REMAIN? to remain somewhere, one must have been there to begin with.

youre missing the point of this parable. it is not salvation and loss of salvation.

it it the production of fruit from a vine.

LadyC can be the type of person that reads her bible, does not curse, jumps and shouts at church when

the high notes are kicking but if no fruit comes out of her then she will be cut. You just have to know

what are the fruits that God the father enjoys. When you get those duckies in a row then you'll see

it's not a salvation parable.

i think you are confused and trying to squeeze different messages from a parable.

Besides salvation isnt based on works (Ephesians 2:9) and fruits are works

[mrs]

actually, the non-osas is scriptural. and it absolutely and irrevocably demonstrates God's sovereignty. i listed previously entire passages and even chapters that would have to be disregarded to fit the other doctrine.

Non-osas makes humans out to be the ultimate decision makers; and causes the promises of God and His infallible nature to be called into question.

Promise: I give unto you eternal life and you will never perish.

Condition: You can however lose your salvation or choose to walk away from it.

Result: God's promises are not absolute and irrevocable but their end result is determined by human choices.

In light of your response I repeat again:

The Bible says that salvation is of God Himself and that He who has begun a good work WILL complete it. When God saves you and starts the work of sanctification that work WILL continue, it does not just ' end'; especially because someone 'decides to stop believing'.

It says ' and i give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish' ...... oh wait we have to add the condition 'they will perish if they change their minds'.

It seems to me that a lot of the confusion over losing salvation stems from attributing the obtaining and keeping of it to the human - instead of to God Himself.

Romans 8:28- to the end of the chapter makes it pretty clear that its God who does the work of salvation and the work of keeping that person as His sanctified child forever. And to those who say this will cause people to go and sin, Paul already addressed that arguement specifically in Romans 6 and 7.

What we see is the awesome truth that God calls someone, redeems them and saves them, indwells them by the Holy Spirit, and begins the never-ending process of making them more like His Son. They have a new nature, a new heart and new desires. This work was started, is continuing, and will be completed by the determined will of God Himself and no one can go against him. ' Nothing shall be able to seperate us from the love of Christ...'

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (Smalcald @ Mar 29 2008, 09:08 AM)

I honestly don't know where I stand on OSAS.

I mean there is scriptural evidence in Hebrews in particular about dogs returning to their own vomit, ....

Well why would a dog return to his vomit? Because he is still a dog. A dog who returns to his vomit does so because he never stopped being a dog. It is picture of a person who was never regenerated. He returned to his old life and in doing so proved the lack of authenticity in his profession of faith.

[~~ angelique ~~]

QUOTE (Smalcald @ Mar 29 2008, 09:08 AM)

I honestly don't know where I stand on OSAS.

I mean there is scriptural evidence in Hebrews in particular about dogs returning to their own vomit, ....

Well why would a dog return to his vomit? Because he is still a dog. A dog who returns to his vomit does so because he never stopped being a dog. It is picture of a person who was never regenerated. He returned to his old life and in doing so proved the lack of authenticity in his profession of faith.

So, what is the difference between a dog returning to his vomit and a backslidden christian???? Are you saying the person never believed??????