Can believers be un-converted?

[deut31:12]

I think its very clear you make salvation out to be a work that we must keep or else we will reach some sin limit and loose it.

No, that is incorrect. I didn't make it that way. It is the scriptures that spell it out for us, but many today reject that and want the will of God to be what it isn't. You have to apply ALL of the scriptures that have been given to us. This is the problem with many teachings today. Only the scriptures that support a do nothing Christianity are being supported and everything else is left out.

Yes, the seed is incorruptible, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the wages of sin is death. Even though we still have the ability to sin after becoming Christians, we have the Holy Spirit to help us to overcome. If we choose, as Christians, not to repent of certain sins then we can lose our salvation.

What Jesus did for man in Eph 2:8,9 is speaking only of his death on the cross for our sins. There was nothing that we did to warrant or help with that, but what is being left out is that AFTER that we are still commanded to life the rest of our lives according to the scriptures. We are commanded to abide in the doctrine of Christ or we don't have God.

If Christianity was just, Salvation=Jesus + 0 then we would not be told to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling, told to study to shew ourselves approved unto God, told to abide in the doctrine of Christ or we don't have God, etc.

Apparently people don't understand what "works" mean in the New Testament. In Eph 2:8,9 "works" is referring to anything that we could have done to contribute to the sacrifice that Jesus did for mankind. What is also overlooked is the very next verse in Eph 2:10.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:10

God has ordained that we should walk in good works and we were created to walk in them. These "works" are entirely different than what was being said in Eph 2:8,9. These "works" is our abiding in the doctrine of Christ and obey these scriptural verses of the gospel. Our "works" AFTER salvation is fleeing and repenting or our sins, when Jesus says to take up our cross and follow him, when Jesus says to lose our life here on the earth, when we are told to lie and steal no more, to flee fornication, when we present our bodies as a living sacrifice, etc.

The living of Christianity is the only "work" that God has required of us. The opposite of this is to live in sin and we are greatly disillusioned if we think that a Christian can't go to hell for not repenting of sins.

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. - Ephesians 5:3-6

"As becometh saints" means after we have become Christians. If, after we have become Christians, we still have these sins in our lives the we will not inherit the kingdom of Christ and of God. The "works" that we do, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, is keeping these sins out of our lives. If we happen to fall into these sins, we can repent and receive forgiveness, but if we do not repent of them in our Christianity we will not inherit the kingdom.

The word "works" has been so twisted, perverted, and made to be a bad word that it has almost become anathema to Christianity and it has been stopped at being applied properly.

[BurnForChrist]

Everyone has a new creation in Christ and an old nature in Adam. Each person has been lit with the light of Christ. The death of Christ paid for all the sin of all the world and this is the gift of Christ. The Holy Spirit is convicting every person of sin. When you choose to follow the commands of Christ, written on your heart, you are living in the new nature, not the old natural man. The more you live in Christ, and walk in love, the more you will store up treasure in heaven and the more good works you will do that will be added to your account.

First of all I'd like to know where you get the statement "everyone has a new creation in Christ"? Are you stating that all of mankind now is a new creature in christ? If you are then that is just as heretical as Pelagianism. Its only those who are "in Christ Jesus" that have been transformed and given a new nature -- 2 Corinthians 5:17. But if you are saying that "everyone" as in every believer then yes I will agree but not with your next statement "and an old nature in Adam." Paul made this quite clear, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." (2nd Cor. 5:17). All believers do not have their old nature, but have a new nature, for they are a new creation.

However this doesn't disturb me as much as your soteriological explanation of how a man is saved. Where in the NT does it teach that we are saved by our works? Whatever happened to believers being justified not by our works but by faith alone? (Romans 3:28, 5:1; Galatians 2:6, 3:11).

In the judgment, you will be judged by the things done in your body during your time on earth. Don

[mrs]

Yes, the seed is incorruptible, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the wages of sin is death. Even though we still have the ability to sin after becoming Christians, we have the Holy Spirit to help us to overcome. If we choose, as Christians, not to repent of certain sins then we can lose our salvation.

What Jesus did for man in Eph 2:8,9 is speaking only of his death on the cross for our sins. There was nothing that we did to warrant or help with that, but what is being left out is that AFTER that we are still commanded to life the rest of our lives according to the scriptures. We are commanded to abide in the doctrine of Christ or we don't have God

Again you confused justification with sanctification.

Tell me, when Jesus died for your sins what portion of your sins did he die for? 50%? 85%? If you TRULY believed that Jesus died for and paid for your sins then you would know and believe that covers sins committed after salvation.

[mrs]

I

[mrs]

If works got one to Heaven then my Atheistic father-in-law would be a shoe in, as well as my Jehovah's Witness mother-in-law. They both exibit more Christlike qualities than some Christians I know.

Apathy is one of the results of believing that what we do has no effect on our eternal destiny. This is the fruit of the OSAS doctrine. By the fruit you will know the tree is bad.

Actually OSAS teaches confidence and trust in God for salvation instead of depending on ourselves.

[Rick-Parker]

This is the problem with many teachings today. Only the scriptures that support a do nothing Christianity are being supported and everything else is left out.

(This may have been said since this statement was made and my response. Sorry about that.)

In my opinion, the is no such thing as a "do nothing" Christian. This type person was not saved in the first place. They may have thought about it with their mind and said it with their mouth, but not with their heart and soul. They never received the Holy Spirit. When one has the Spirit, they have works. They can't help it because they have surrendered their lives and the Spirit is in them. Why would an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnificent and omniscient God give salvation to someone whom He knows will walk away? He wouldn't. God is not mocked.

[mrs]

unredtypo you are STILL teaching a salvation by works. Have you ever read Romans? It is the clearest and best commentary in the Bible on exactly what salvation is. Paul makes it rather clear that salvation is of God and not by works. Rather as I've said again and again, works are part of sanctification which is a fruit of salvation and is NOT required for justification.

In Romans 11 Paul is teaching about election and in his argument he shows how God has always reserved for himself a remnant and that reserving is only because of His grace.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

My point? Paul is clearly saying that you either believe salvation is of grace or it is of works - there can not be both working at once. Unred I understand that you are sincere in your belief but your belief is unScriptural and actually heresy for it does not teach that salvation is only found in Christ and His work alone.

[deut31:12]

Yes, the seed is incorruptible, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the wages of sin is death. Even though we still have the ability to sin after becoming Christians, we have the Holy Spirit to help us to overcome. If we choose, as Christians, not to repent of certain sins then we can lose our salvation.

What Jesus did for man in Eph 2:8,9 is speaking only of his death on the cross for our sins. There was nothing that we did to warrant or help with that, but what is being left out is that AFTER that we are still commanded to life the rest of our lives according to the scriptures. We are commanded to abide in the doctrine of Christ or we don't have God

Again you confused justification with sanctification.

Tell me, when Jesus died for your sins what portion of your sins did he die for? 50%? 85%? If you TRULY believed that Jesus died for and paid for your sins then you would know and believe that covers sins committed after salvation.

When Jesus died for our sins it covered all of our past sins and opened the door for our future sins to be forgiven when we repent and confess them.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; - Romans 3:25

After we become Christians we receive forgiveness for our sins when we repent and confess them.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9

But, in how a Christian can be un-converted is when they CHOOSE not to repent of sins and/or keep sins in their lives they don't want to let go of.

The only way that the blood of Christ forgives a Christian's sin after salvation is when the Christian repents and confesses the sin. They are not automatically forgiven.

Edited April 5, 2008 by deut31:12

[deut31:12]

If works got one to Heaven then my Atheistic father-in-law would be a shoe in, as well as my Jehovah's Witness mother-in-law. They both exibit more Christlike qualities than some Christians I know.

Apathy is one of the results of believing that what we do has no effect on our eternal destiny. This is the fruit of the OSAS doctrine. By the fruit you will know the tree is bad.

Actually OSAS teaches confidence and trust in God for salvation instead of depending on ourselves.

A lot of OSAS teaches and/ implies that a Christian can keep sin in their life and it is automatically forgiven. It is usually supported using the verses that speak of our works being burned and ourselves being saved.

It does seem that each time it is said that we are required to obey the gospel of Christ or we will lose our salvation it is attributed to depending on ourselves. That is so far from the truth. We are told things like this throughout scripoture.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. - Romans 12:1-2

Many scriptures tell us that sin will keep us from inheriting the kingdom of God. This is written to Christians and applies to Christians also.

After we are saved we are still required to live our lives according to the gospel of Christ or we do not have God. Scripture says so.

[mrs]

Yes, the seed is incorruptible, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the wages of sin is death. Even though we still have the ability to sin after becoming Christians, we have the Holy Spirit to help us to overcome. If we choose, as Christians, not to repent of certain sins then we can lose our salvation.

What Jesus did for man in Eph 2:8,9 is speaking only of his death on the cross for our sins. There was nothing that we did to warrant or help with that, but what is being left out is that AFTER that we are still commanded to life the rest of our lives according to the scriptures. We are commanded to abide in the doctrine of Christ or we don't have God

Again you confused justification with sanctification.

Tell me, when Jesus died for your sins what portion of your sins did he die for? 50%? 85%? If you TRULY believed that Jesus died for and paid for your sins then you would know and believe that covers sins committed after salvation.

When Jesus died for our sins it covered all of our past sins and opened the door for our future sins to be forgiven when we repent and confess them.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; - Romans 3:25

After we become Christians we receive forgiveness for our sins when we repent and confess them.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9

But, in how a Christian can be un-converted is when they CHOOSE not to repent of sins and/or keep sins in their lives they don't want to let go of.

The only way that the blood of Christ forgives a Christian's sin after salvation is when the Christian repents and confesses the sin. They are not automatically forgiven.

Heresy.