Christians Draw the Line?

[angels4u]

Where do you think Christians should draw the line?

Do you agree with this article from the world wide church of God,

I'm just interested to see where everybody stands on this topic, its very interesting

Christians Draw the Line

Paganism, as we know, is a highly controversial subject, but it does need to be discussed. Can we use pagan customs in the church of God? We need to recognize that we already do. Simply because something has a pagan origin does not mean that it is sinful to use it, even for a religious use.

Wedding rings were and are a pagan custom, and there is no biblical command for them, but we use them in church-sanctioned ceremonies.

Wedding ceremonies themselves were also a pagan custom, and are not commanded in Scripture.

Funerals include pagan customs, too, based on erroneous ideas about the afterlife. Scripture says nothing about putting flowers on graves, etc. Egyptian mythology said that the dead should be embalmed, and Joseph participated in this custom (Gen. 50:2-3) despite its pagan origin.

Pagans created statues -- of animals and people, both life-size and miniatures. They had statues in their flower gardens and statues in their homes. But statues have lost their "pagan" connotations because people do not believe in such gods and goddesses anymore.

Money has pagan designs on it. Some U.S. coins used to have the goddess "Liberty" on them. Dollar bills have an eye over a pyramid.

Pagans assigned days of the week to different gods, and we still use these names.

So the question arises, How careful must we be in weeding paganisms out of our lives? Where do we draw the line? The answer is, different Christians draw the line in different places. We need to allow some diversity on these issues.

Some conservative churches used to forbid wedding rings. Some forbid Christmas and Easter. They are careful to do what God says, and if God tells them to avoid paganism, then they carefully do it. Some are so careful that they err on the side of forbidding too much -- but they err. They make commands about things that God doesn't command. That is a sin.

Example of the Corinthians

In the first-century Church, gentile Christians were told to avoid meat that had been sacrificed to pagan idols (Acts 15:29). However, Paul told the Corinthians that they could eat meat sold in the public market even though that meat had probably been sacrificed to an idol (1 Cor. 10:25). And he told them not to eat in the pagan temple. In other words, he told them to avoid blatant paganism, but they did not have to superstitiously avoid everything that paganism might have touched.

In Corinth, some Christians were more careful than others, and some more liberal than others. Paul told them they could eat the meat, but he also told them to be cautious about causing offense (verses 32-33). However, love does not mean that we all have to abide by the strictest person's conscience. No matter how many people think we ought to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses, we don't have to (Acts 15). Even if some Christians think we should be vegetarians (and some do), we don't have to abide by their conscience (Rom. 14:1-8). Paul says that we have freedom, but we are to use our freedom in a sensitive way.

Now let us imagine a first-century potluck in the Corinthian church. Everyone has brought their food and everyone has eaten a little bit of everything. Suddenly some overly zealous convert, anxious to avoid the paganism he recently came out of, starts asking questions about the meat. The Smiths, he finds out, bought their beef from John Pagan, and John always has his cows killed at the temple of Zeus. The casserole has been tainted with pagan-tainted meat, and everybody has eaten some of it!

What should the zealous convert do with this information? Should he announce it throughout the congregation, leading to an ever-more-diligent search for pagan-tainted foods? Of course not. The sensible (and the Christian) thing to do would be to keep quiet -- but we know that overly zealous converts sometimes aren't sensible. Their zeal overcomes good sense, and although they think they are acting in love, they are actually causing an unnecessary and unhelpful disturbance with their "knowledge." That's what happens today when people preach that wedding rings are pagan.

It is possible to be too zealous in avoiding things that have connections with paganism. Yelling about idol-tainted meat doesn't do anything to strengthen anyone's faith in Christ. All it would do is cause doubts and irritations. That is basically what some people do in their vociferous condemnations of Christmas. People today generally learn about Christmas as a Christian custom, not as a pagan custom. It's like they saw the meat in the market and there was a sign saying "Good for Christians." So they bought it, and then someone comes along and tells them it was tainted.

Some people don't think that the example of meat can apply to holidays; some people do. So, they draw their lines in different places. Each person considers himself as strong and others as weak, but how are the weak and the strong to get along with each other? Not by enforcing conformity, but by allowing some diversity.

When was Jesus born?

Some people have claimed that Jesus was born near the fall festivals. That is possible, but it is not proven. It is not likely that Augustus would risk a rebellion by requiring each person to go to his own city at the same time as the local religion required everyone to go to Jerusalem. Most likely, an empire-wide census would take several years, and would be administered locally, by local customs, taking into account local religious festivals. Luke 2:1-3 says that "everyone went to his own town to register." Why would "everyone" go to such trouble? Apparently it was required.

Many people have objected to the idea that Jesus was born in December, since there were shepherds in their fields (Luke 2:8), and shepherds didn't normally do that in December. But the Jewish Mishnah reports that flocks were kept in the fields near Bethlehem, even in winter. The weather there is sometimes cold, but sometimes quite mild in December.

Besides, this was not a normal year. Augustus had told everyone to go to their own city (verse 3), but the shepherds had not. Perhaps they were staying in the fields later than usual in order to avoid taxation. Perhaps it was because the cities were full. We do not know, but for some reason they were not obeying Caesar's order to go to their city. So it is quite possible that the shepherds were in the fields as late as December. Of course, this doesn't prove that Jesus was born in December, but it does show that the chief objection to a December birth isn't that strong.

In the year 221 (long before the time of Constantine), Julius Africanus came up with December 25 as the date of Jesus' birth. He doesn't tell us how he came up with this date, but a later author calculates the date in this way: Zechariah was serving in the temple during the fall festivals when Gabriel told him that his wife would conceive (Luke 1:8, 23). Jesus was conceived six months later (verse 26), near the spring equinox. Jesus would therefore be born in late December. Of course, this calculation is not proof (the starting assumptions are not proven) but it shows that the date was not necessarily based on paganism. The date could have been calculated without any reference to pagan customs.

Julius' calculation may have been innocent, or it may have been contrived. We do not know what his motive was. Therefore, we cannot dogmatically say that the December 25 date was contrived simply because a pagan festival already existed on that date. We weren't there, so we cannot claim to know that it was a deliberate attempt to get Christians to observe a pagan day. When the church first began celebrating Christmas, it had nothing to do with trees and holly and reindeer. All those were added centuries later in northern Europe. The fact that nonChristian customs were later associated with the festival does not prove that the date itself originated in paganism. It may have been based on Julius' calculation instead.

However, for the moment let us suppose that Christmas originated as a deliberate substitution for Saturnalia. Many of the people who attended church were recently-converted pagans. Some were not-yet converted pagans. They were attracted to the Saturnalia festivities, and sitting at home alone was not a desirable option when merrymaking could be heard in the streets all around. So, the theory goes, the church provided a clean alternative: going to church.

Would it be wrong to have a church service in deliberate opposition to Saturnalia? No. There is no question of the church trying to worship God by the customs of the heathen -- the church is fighting against the customs of the heathen. Only the date is the same, and there is good reason to have church services on that date, on which members can invite their unconverted friends and family into church and away from paganism. At some point, Christians could have made the comparison: on this date, pagans celebrate the birth of the sun god, but we are worshipping the sun of righteousness (Mal. 4:2). We can celebrate his birth, too.

That may have been the way Christmas started. Apparently in the early centuries it was primarily a church service. And the strategy seems to have been successful: no one celebrates Saturnalia any more. Christians don't observe Christmas in honor of the sun god, just as Christians don't worship the figurines or statues that they have in their homes. Although the day was once used for idol worship, it isn't anymore.

Consider the case of Christians in Korea, for example. December 25 was not a pagan holiday there. And yet Christians there now observe December 25. Why? Because missionaries introduced the holiday. For them, it has a Christian origin, not a pagan one. Should the scrupulous Christians go in to tell them that December 25 was once sacrificed to an idol and should therefore be avoided? That approach creates doubts, not dedication. It does not edify or encourage.

Scriptures

Two scriptures have often been used to argue against Christmas customs. Jeremiah 10 has nothing to do with Christmas trees. That custom originated in northern Europe and had nothing to do with Jeremiah centuries earlier. Deut. 12:30 has also been appealed to, but the verse simply doesn't forbid everything the pagans did (for another article, click here.) God does not object to all worship practices of the pagans (such as prayer, sacrifices and temples), but only the abominations that they did in worship.

Basically, if it's wrong, it's wrong on any day of the year. That's the kind of customs we need to beware. But if a custom is harmless in July (decorating the house with colored lights, for example), then we needn't condemn it in December. We can't let centuries-dead pagans dictate what we can or can't do. They have no authority over our calendar.

So we have to narrow things down: If Christmas is a sin, just where is the sin? Is it a sin for the church to have worship services on this date? Is it a sin to celebrate the birth of the Sun of Righteousness? Is it a sin to celebrate his birth on this particular date? Is it a sin to celebrate this date to the exclusion of others?

Eastern Orthodox Christians, for example, may observe January 6 as a festival for the birth of Christ. They were not influenced by Rome or Saturnalia. Is it OK to observe this date, or do we feel a compulsion to dig into history looking for something bad about this day so we can disqualify it? Do we feel a compulsion to ask whether the meat has been sacrificed to an idol?

Let's summarize:

It is not wrong to rejoice at the birth of Jesus.

It is not wrong to do this every year.

It is not wrong to add a religious festival.

The date of Dec. 25 isn't necessarily pagan.

Even if the date is pagan, it isn't automatically wrong to use things that used to be pagan, such as wedding rings, funeral customs, statues, and the names of days.

If the date is permissible and church services are permissible, but certain customs are not, then we ought to specify which customs are ungodly rather than just condemning everything associated with the date. If a fat man in a red suit is permissible, but fables about him are not, then we need to identify the sin without condemning the harmless. Of course, different Christians will draw the lines in different places, and we need to get along with each other.

Conclusion

Paganism is an emotion-laden subject. Conservative Christians have a history of being dogmatic, legalistic, and of misusing the Scriptures when we argue our point. With that history, of course, it is impossible to discuss this subject without somebody disagreeing. Each person thinks himself to be properly balanced -- but each person's balance point is different. Equally sincere people draw lines in different places. What then are we to do?

Should the church legislate about which practices are OK and which are not? That is not our commission. We are not in the Talmud business. Each Christian should draw his or her own lines, and be tolerant of those who draw different lines. Do not judge your brother, Paul says (Romans 14:5-13). That is one of the most difficult commandments in the entire Bible!

No one has to participate in Christmas or Easter, but we should not condemn those who do. Just as in the matter of makeup and birthdays, some will do it one way and some will do it another. Whether you participate or whether you abstain, do it all to the Lord, and let him be the judge. This is the Christian approach to the cultural situation today.

[Ovedya]

Simple answer? Believer should draw the line at the point these things are in danger of stumbling other younger believers. See 1 Corinthians 8:9, 13; 10:32; Rom. 14:13, 20, 21; 2 Cor. 6:3; 11:29; Matt. 18:6

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Angels,

Where do you think Christians should draw the line?

Do you agree with this article from the world wide church of God,

I'm just interested to see where everybody stands on this topic, its very interesting

Where FAITH ends and the folly of man begins. Laodicia needs to get off the fence, one side or the other.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Cerran]

Money has pagan designs on it. Some U.S. coins used to have the goddess "Liberty" on them.

Lady Liberty isn't a goddess in her current form, she's a symbol of the Idea of freedom in the US. Now the origins of her likeness and meaning may have come from the Greek goddess minerva but that meaning was lost long before she was used on US currency. Today Lady Liberty is a symbol designating two of the United States' most celibrated ideals, Freedom & Liberty.

Wedding rings were and are a pagan custom, and there is no biblical command for them, but we use them in church-sanctioned ceremonies.

I believe the idea of wedding rings has also changed from the pagan origins. The wedding ring as a plain circle has come to be symbolic of endless love and the marriage bond. The gold of which it is made represents purity and noble and durable affection. As my pastor put it, it is a reminder of the promise you made to your spouse, that you knew that they were not perfect when you married them but the promise you made to each other and God would be enough to keep you together.

[other one]

You say this article came from the world wide church of god...... I think old Herbert Armstrong just turned over in his grave. His thinking was what kept us from being members of that church. I didn't think it would happen but looks like they have progressed much since we left there years ago.

Sam

[keslc]

Personally, I tend to agree with much of the article. There are things (like wearing makeup) that I have no problem with doing, but I know brothers and sisters who feel differently. I don't argue with them over it ("you MUST wear makeup or that's just stupid!", for example) nor do I flaunt it in front of them ("I look SOOO good with my MAKEUP on" as I flash heavily mascaraed lashes at them) same with anything else. The important thing, I think, is in your personal walk with Christ, if he has brought things to your attention that He does not want you to participate in or that you would feel disloyal to Him about, then don't do it. Also, don't expect everyone else to participate in all of the things you feel ok about doing. There's really no sense arguing about it with other people as long as you are abiding in Christ, He would not lead you astray.

MHO

[Douay]

Sorry if I'm insensitive keslc, but that picture of your kids is quite large, maybe you should use a different one or lower the resolution some. Just a suggestion, we don't all have high speed connections,

Douay