Left Behind - will there be a "Rapture"?

[Massorite]

The Bible leads me to believe that there is a pre-Trib Rapture. We read the same Word and have the same Lord. It is all a matter of understanding and/or interpretation. Just my opinion.

Here iws why I say the bible does not teach pre-trib. All of the major characteristics foundations the pre-trib concept is based on can not be proved using scripture.

1. The pre-trib concept teaches that the 144,000 will travel around the world and re-evangelize a new body of Christ after the rapture has taken place.

2. The pre-trib concept teaches that the restrainer spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:6&7 is the body of Christ.

3. The pre-trib concept teaches that the rapture will be or is a secret rapture.

4. The per-trib concept teaches that there will be seven years of tribulation that will start as soon as the church is gone or raptured.

5. The pre-trib concept teaches that the antichrist will not show up until the beginning of the seven years and the church is removed from earth.

6. The pre-trib concept teaches that there will be tribulation saints who will suffer great tribulation at the hands of the antichrist after the rapture and that those tribulation saints are those saints that the 144,000 evangelized.

The bible say nothing at all about the 144,000 going anywhere in the world except Israel.

The is nothing written anywhere in the bible that tells us the "restrainer or he who withholds or he who lets" is the church. In fact the bible doesn't tell us who this restrainer is at all.

There is no mention of any secret rapture in the bible.

The bible says nothing at all about any seven years of tribulation. The bible tells us that there will be a seven years period during which there will be a time of tribulation but the bible does not tell us that the tribulation will last for seven years.

In 2 Thess. 2:3 the bible clearly tells us that the "day of Christ or resurrection day" will not come unless there is "first" a falling away (departure from the faith)

and the antichrist is revealed. Which means that the antichrist will be here on earth doing what he does best (persecuting the people of God) before the return of Christ.

Lastly the bible teaches nothing at all about any tribulation saints separate from the saints that are here on earth as we are speaking.

All of these pre-trib foundations can not be scripturally backed up with scripture. They are simply the assumptions of men who can not prove what they teach.

The restrainer for example. Where in the bible does it tell us who this "he" is? If you can't find where the bible clearly tells us who this "he" is. Then to teach that he is the church or the Holy Spirit or the body of Christ or anything else is an assumption with no scriptural proof to reinforce the assumption. Which means the teaching is false and a doctrine to be shunned.

[Guest]

Today

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;

that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:11-13

Tomorrow

Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zephaniah 1:14-18

.... assumes that Revelation is a literal account of the end of time, contrary to what John's original intention was or what his readers would have understood it to mean.

Contrary To John's What?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

And Who's Words?

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 22:12-13

Sure Don't Sound Like Beloved Brother John To Me

Intentions

The Revelation Of Jesus Christ Which God Gave To Jesus

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Revelation 1:1-3

Some Folk Will Tell You These Words Are Not The Direct Revelation Of Jesus The Christ The Son Of God

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:44

Believe God And Flee The Sure Wrath To Come Knowing The Revealed Might Of The LORD Jesus Is Real

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:18-19

And Trust God's Word That Salvation Is The Gift Of God's Grace Alone

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Because He First Loved You

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

And His Joy

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2

Is Come

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING OF KINGS

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

[Massorite]

The Bible leads me to believe that there is a pre-Trib Rapture. We read the same Word and have the same Lord. It is all a matter of understanding and/or interpretation. Just my opinion.

Here iws why I say the bible does not teach pre-trib. All of the major characteristics foundations the pre-trib concept is based on can not be proved using scripture.

1. The pre-trib concept teaches that the 144,000 will travel around the world and re-evangelize a new body of Christ after the rapture has taken place.

2. The pre-trib concept teaches that the restrainer spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:6&7 is the body of Christ.

3. The pre-trib concept teaches that the rapture will be or is a secret rapture.

4. The per-trib concept teaches that there will be seven years of tribulation that will start as soon as the church is gone or raptured.

5. The pre-trib concept teaches that the antichrist will not show up until the beginning of the seven years and the church is removed from earth.

6. The pre-trib concept teaches that there will be tribulation saints who will suffer great tribulation at the hands of the antichrist after the rapture and that those tribulation saints are those saints that the 144,000 evangelized.

The bible say nothing at all about the 144,000 going anywhere in the world except Israel.

The is nothing written anywhere in the bible that tells us the "restrainer or he who withholds or he who lets" is the church. In fact the bible doesn't tell us who this restrainer is at all.

There is no mention of any secret rapture in the bible.

The bible says nothing at all about any seven years of tribulation. The bible tells us that there will be a seven years period during which there will be a time of tribulation but the bible does not tell us that the tribulation will last for seven years.

In 2 Thess. 2:3 the bible clearly tells us that the "day of Christ or resurrection day" will not come unless there is "first" a falling away (departure from the faith)

and the antichrist is revealed. Which means that the antichrist will be here on earth doing what he does best (persecuting the people of God) before the return of Christ.

Lastly the bible teaches nothing at all about any tribulation saints separate from the saints that are here on earth as we are speaking.

All of these pre-trib foundations can not be scripturally backed up with scripture. They are simply the assumptions of men who can not prove what they teach.

The restrainer for example. Where in the bible does it tell us who this "he" is? If you can't find where the bible clearly tells us who this "he" is. Then to teach that he is the church or the Holy Spirit or the body of Christ or anything else is an assumption with no scriptural proof to reinforce the assumption. Which means the teaching is false and a doctrine to be shunned.

MAy I add one more? Pre-trib/rapture assumes that Revelation is a literal account of the end of time, contrary to what John's original intention was or what his readers would have understood it to mean.

Amen to that.

[spiritman]

The Bible leads me to believe that there is a pre-Trib Rapture. We read the same Word and have the same Lord. It is all a matter of understanding and/or interpretation. Just my opinion.

Branden welcome to the truth my brother

Your truth as you understand it or biblical truth as I understand it?

I don't understand; didn't you say above that you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture? well so do I.

[Rick-Parker]

The Bible leads me to believe that there is a pre-Trib Rapture. We read the same Word and have the same Lord. It is all a matter of understanding and/or interpretation. Just my opinion.

Branden welcome to the truth my brother

Your truth as you understand it or biblical truth as I understand it?

I don't understand; didn't you say above that you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture? well so do I.

I'm sorry. I misunderstood. Yes, I believe in the pre-Trib Rapture. I thought you were taking the position of Massorite.

[stevehut]

What I find incredible is how many Christians are willing to buy in to the whole pre-trib mess without bothering to research it for themselves.

Why is this important?

[stevehut]

I disagree. If one believes with all their heart that they will not be here on earth for any great tribulation. What do you suppose they would say if suddenly they found themselves in the middle of the exact opposite of what they have been taught or believed with all their heart.

Why is this important? Would they then not be saved?

And does this same hazard not apply, if the opposite turned out to be true?

[Massorite]

What I find incredible is how many Christians are willing to buy in to the whole pre-trib mess without bothering to research it for themselves.

Why is this important?

Lets take John Hagee for an example. He is a great man of God whom God has blessed with a great ministry and a world wide ministry at that. He has a large amount of knowledge of the word of God and is so far a good pastor.

Yet for a man with all of his biblical knowledge he preaches the pre-trib rapture which is not a scripturally sound doctrine. How is it that a man like Hagee can be so deceived when it comes to some prophetic scripture even though God has blessed him so.

The answer is this. He was deceived over time. The biblical collages he went to taught it, his father taught it, his fathers father taught it and so on. Even up until this present day he has had it drilled into his head so much so that he truly believes that it is in the bible and preaches to that effect. And because it is "the easy way out" and it is preached by almost every single high profile preacher on earth and a way to escape the tribulation, millions have latched on to this belief.

The result will be that millions will fall because one day they will believe that they have been lied to because they are going to suddenly find them selves right in the middle of what they have always believed or been taught would never happen to them.

It is the work of satan.

[Massorite]

I disagree. If one believes with all their heart that they will not be here on earth for any great tribulation. What do you suppose they would say if suddenly they found themselves in the middle of the exact opposite of what they have been taught or believed with all their heart.

Why is this important? Would they then not be saved?

And does this same hazard not apply, if the opposite turned out to be true?

Yes they would still be saved. But if they suddenly find them selves in the middle of what they have been taught would never happen to them with all of its suffering many will believe that they have been lied to, turn from Christ to the antichrtist who will be claiming to be Christ and who will be doing great wonders to show that he is Christ/God.

If you believed in a man who claimed to be God that died 2000 years ago and did great wonders which were the very things you were seeing in front of your face in this day by a man who also claimed to be the son of God????

Any one whose heart is hot for Christ will be saved but anyone who,s heart waxes from hot to cold for Christ and looks to the imposter will not be saved.

Salvation is only limited to your steadfastness in Christ. If you endure to the end you will be saved. If you turn from Christ you will not be saved.

[stevehut]

Lets take John Hagee for an example. He is a great man of God whom God has blessed with a great ministry and a world wide ministry at that. He has a large amount of knowledge of the word of God and is so far a good pastor.

I still don't understand.

So Hagee is teaching a false doctrine of end-times. What would be the practical consequence of this?