Is there a Hell?

[BlindSeeker]

What you have shown is that there is a hell (which, I think PA agrees that there is one) and that it will be destroyed. Also, it only says the devil, beast, and false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire forever. It says nothing about the non-believers being tormented in the lake of fire forever.

Hello Sweet Sister,

What is your take on the following passage?

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It would appear as if the Lord was quoting these verses in part below -

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Peace

[P_Joseph]

Luke 16:19-31 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

19`And -- a certain man was rich, and was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry sumptuously every day,

20and there was a certain poor man, by name Lazarus, who was laid at his porch, full of sores,

21and desiring to be filled from the crumbs that are falling from the table of the rich man; yea, also the dogs, coming, were licking his sores.

22`And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham -- and the rich man also died, and was buried;

23and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,

24and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame.

25`And Abraham said, Child, remember that thou did receive -- thou -- thy good things in thy life, and Lazarus in like manner the evil things, and now he is comforted, and thou art distressed;

26and besides all these things, between us and you a great chasm is fixed, so that they who are willing to go over from hence unto you are not able, nor do they from thence to us pass through.

27`And he said, I pray thee, then, father, that thou mayest send him to the house of my father,

28for I have five brothers, so that he may thoroughly testify to them, that they also may not come to this place of torment.

29`Abraham saith to him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them;

30and he said, No, father Abraham, but if any one from the dead may go unto them, they will reform.

31And he said to him, If Moses and the prophets they do not hear, neither if one may rise out of the dead will they be persuaded.'

Matthew 5:21-23 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;

22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

23`If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee,

Matthew 5:28-30 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

28but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.

29`But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

30`And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Matthew 5:29-31 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

29`But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

30`And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Matthew 10:27-29 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

27that which I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light, and that which you hear at the ear, proclaim on the house-tops.

28`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Matthew 18:8-10 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

8`And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during. 9`And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.

Matthew 23:14-16 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

14`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye eat up the houses of the widows, and for a pretence make long prayers, because of this ye shall receive more abundant judgment.

15`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.

Matthew 23:32-34 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

32and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers.

33`Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Mark 9:42-44 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

42and whoever may cause to stumble one of the little ones believing in me, better is it for him if a millstone is hanged about his neck, and he hath been cast into the sea.

43`And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

44where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched.

Mark 9:45-48 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

45`And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --

46where there worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched. 47And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire -- 48where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched;

Luke 12:4-6 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

4`And I say to you, my friends, be not afraid of those killing the body, and after these things are not having anything over to do;

5but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.

Gehenna is where there is fire and it is unquenchable this doesn

[ParanoidAndroid]

What does scripture say about the length of hell into eternity? It would be good for us to look at some specific passages about hell.

Here's what the Word has to say concerning hell.

Rev. 20

13.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15.And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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Here's what the Word says about the length of their stay.

Rev. 20:10

10. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

What you have shown is that there is a hell (which, I think PA agrees that there is one) and that it will be destroyed. Also, it only says the devil, beast, and false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire forever. It says nothing about the non-believers being tormented in the lake of fire forever.

Thanks Xan, that was exactly my meaning. Revelation 20 is split in 2, The first, verse 10 is slightly different. It refers to a "lake of fire and brimestone" (or fire and sulfur, depending on translation), and refers to the Devil, the Beast and the Prophet. This then goes on to say that it is a time of eternal torment.

We then have verses 13-15, which refer to the rest of humanity, and of this it does not say "lake of fire and brimestone" (or lake of fire and sulfur), but simply "Lake of Fire". It is a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless (though I'm not arguing they are different places, just showing the difference in wording has significance). For these people, the rest of the dead who were judged and thrown into the "Lake of Fire", for these people, the Lake of Fire is the "second death" (verse 14).

When discussing Revelation 20, Man chose to reverse the order of the passages, speak about all of us first, and then speak about the length of it afterwards, which is not exactly a biblical way of looking at it, when it is clear the first half is only referring to the devil, the beast and the false prophet (and speaks of it as pain and torture), and then refers to the second half to the rest of humanity, but describes it as a "second death", not torture, or pain.

Significant, no?

[ParanoidAndroid]

What you have shown is that there is a hell (which, I think PA agrees that there is one) and that it will be destroyed. Also, it only says the devil, beast, and false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire forever. It says nothing about the non-believers being tormented in the lake of fire forever.

Hello Sweet Sister,

What is your take on the following passage?

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It would appear as if the Lord was quoting these verses in part below -

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Peace

Hi Blindseeker, I'm not the "sweet sister" you were referring to, but if I may answer, I already addressed this in my previous post on the earlier page (page 3, I think). I'll repost it. It was in response to Mark 9 (with specific focus on verse 49, but in my final paragraph reference Isaiah 66, since this was where the quote originates from:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The first point I would like to address is the metaphorical use of both Salt and Fire in the Bible. Though salt has been used in other contexts to refer to being Holy and set apart for God, this is not the meaning implied in this passage. In Matthew 5, for example, where Jesus uses salt in the context of being Holy, he specifically states

[ParanoidAndroid]

As an aside, why is it that twice Mark 9 has been quoted in this thread, first by Man on page 3, and now by Blindseeker just now. Why is it that both these quoted only verses 43-48?????

There is an obvious continuation of thought from verse 48 to 49, yet it is always left off. As far as I'm concerned, and going by all readings, verse 49 is the key verse in the entire passage, yet it seems to be regularly ommitted. Mark goes into no small detail about fire and destruction and then in verse 9 says: Everyone will be salted with fire. Is it ignored because people just don't think it important, or is it uncomfortable to think that "everyone will be salted with fire" might change the outlook on this whole section, particularly since 43-48 without verse 49 make it appear to be only referring to non-believers while adding verse 49 includes everyone.

Something to think about.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Sorry for the extra post, but just something to think about, but to actually quote that passage in context, the full verses 43-50, we have something interesting:

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt

50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How does verse 49 and verse 50 add or change the understanding of these passages (if it does)?

*Note - the earliest and most reliable known texts of the Bible do not include verses 44 or 46, and verse 49 omits the following: "and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" - but for the KJV purists, I have quoted this version, though it is not my favoured version. For further reading see my Salted with Fire thread, if you have time to read it

[Guest man]

Thanks Xan, that was exactly my meaning. Revelation 20 is split in 2, The first, verse 10 is slightly different. It refers to a "lake of fire and brimestone" (or fire and sulfur, depending on translation), and refers to the Devil, the Beast and the Prophet. This then goes on to say that it is a time of eternal torment.

We then have verses 13-15, which refer to the rest of humanity, and of this it does not say "lake of fire and brimestone" (or lake of fire and sulfur), but simply "Lake of Fire". It is a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless (though I'm not arguing they are different places, just showing the difference in wording has significance). For these people, the rest of the dead who were judged and thrown into the "Lake of Fire", for these people, the Lake of Fire is the "second death" (verse 14).

When discussing Revelation 20, Man chose to reverse the order of the passages, speak about all of us first, and then speak about the length of it afterwards, which is not exactly a biblical way of looking at it, when it is clear the first half is only referring to the devil, the beast and the false prophet (and speaks of it as pain and torture), and then refers to the second half to the rest of humanity, but describes it as a "second death", not torture, or pain.

Significant, no?

No,.....it's not.

Where in the Word does it state that "the second death" equals nonexistence?

[sistercindy]

i would certainly say that is a great passage that gives us the contrast between future for the faithful and the future for the faithless.

Isaish 66:22-24 is an awesome scripture...

yes my friends, there is indeed a Heaven and Hell that awaits...

If we call ourselves Christians, we must believe in the absolute truth of God's Word

In Christ... peace to you

[BlindSeeker]

As an aside, why is it that twice Mark 9 has been quoted in this thread, first by Man on page 3, and now by Blindseeker just now. Why is it that both these quoted only verses 43-48?????

There is an obvious continuation of thought from verse 48 to 49, yet it is always left off. As far as I'm concerned, and going by all readings, verse 49 is the key verse in the entire passage, yet it seems to be regularly ommitted. Mark goes into no small detail about fire and destruction and then in verse 9 says: Everyone will be salted with fire. Is it ignored because people just don't think it important, or is it uncomfortable to think that "everyone will be salted with fire" might change the outlook on this whole section, particularly since 43-48 without verse 49 make it appear to be only referring to non-believers while adding verse 49 includes everyone.

Something to think about.

Hello Paranoid,

Sometimes it is simply a matter of quoting the verse needed to make the point intended. I ended with verse 48 simply because I was addressing hell as a final judgment of the wicked.

Verse 49 - 50 to me are simply stating that everyone will be judged, either by ourselves acknowledging the truth of God

[sistercindy]

If there is no hell, then just what is it that we are Saved from?

t.

That is the best answer I have ever heard to this question (which comes up over and over again.)

That is a blessed answer my friend! And ever so helpful to me as I strive in helping others (in particular the youth i minister to daily) to "see the truth" of God's Word..many thanks, God bless!!