Is there a Hell?

[Guest man]

Hell was but it is no more. To believe in Hell is to keep Satan alive...to me. Death is a reminder of what we once were.

Mark 3

29. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

What does "eternal damnation" mean to you?

If hell is no more, what is it that gets thrown into the lake of fire?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

Keturah,

At the most in my lifetime I may have decieve a few, but they didn't lose their salvation or did they sin against God because of it.

There is only one problem with your assertion here. The Word of God states that all have fallen short, that all men sin and miss the mark of Righteousness needed to escape damnation;

Ro

[ParanoidAndroid]

No,.....it's not.

Where in the Word does it state that "the second death" equals nonexistence?

I quoted a few of them back on page 1, here they are again:

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ~ Matthew 7:13

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" ~ Romans 9:22

"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things." ~ Phillipians 3:19

"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly" ~ 2 Peter 3:7

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" ~ 2 Thessalonians 1:9

Pay particular attention to the last one or two - "the punishment of eternal destruction", "the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly". When has destruction ever been a synonym for suffering????? Moving back to the Revelation 20 question, When has death ever been a synonym for suffering????? As far as I know, it hasn't, and Revelation 20:14 state "the lake of fire is the second death. It is not "the second place where people are punished for eternity". I think the fact that the fate of the devil, false prophet and beast (and I agree this is pain and suffering) is dealt with separately to the fate of the rest of humanity, which is only ever described as "the second death".

There are more, but I don't ahve time to search them up right at this stage All the best,

[ParanoidAndroid]

Hello Paranoid,

Sometimes it is simply a matter of quoting the verse needed to make the point intended. I ended with verse 48 simply because I was addressing hell as a final judgment of the wicked.

Verse 49 - 50 to me are simply stating that everyone will be judged, either by ourselves acknowledging the truth of God

[P_Joseph]

Gehenna = a real place.

Hell = a real place.

Jesus was using a visual affect so the people would understand just how bad hell is.

You explained away Mark 9:42-48, which I respectfully disagree, but what about these verse? Or does the earliest and most reliable known text not include these verse either? Not trying to be persnickety I realy want to know.

Matthew 5:21-23 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;

22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

23`If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee,

Matthew 5:28-30 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

28but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.

29`But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

30`And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Matthew 5:29-31 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

29`But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

30`And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Matthew 10:27-29 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

27that which I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light, and that which you hear at the ear, proclaim on the house-tops.

28`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Matthew 18:8-10 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

8`And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during. 9`And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.

Matthew 23:14-16 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

14`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye eat up the houses of the widows, and for a pretence make long prayers, because of this ye shall receive more abundant judgment.

15`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.

Matthew 23:32-34 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

32and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers.

33`Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Gehenna: A translation of the Aramaic form of Heb.ge-ben-hinnom, valley of the son of Hinnom.

The valley of Ben Hinnom (NIV) or the valley of the son of Hinnom (KJV,RSV,ASV) A valley west and SW of Jerusalem that formed part of the border between Judah and Benjamin( Josh 15:8; cf.18:16; Neh 11:30-310). Here Ahaz(2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chron 28:3) and Manasseh (2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chron 33:6) sacrified their sons to Molech. For this reason Josiah defiled the place (2 Kings 23:10).

After the OT period, Jewish apocalyptic writers began to to call the Valley of Hinnom the entrance to hell, later hell itself. The NT distinguishes sharply between Hades, the intermediate, bodiless state, and Gehenna, the state of final punishment after the resurrection of the body. Gehenna existed before the judgment (Matt 25:41) The word is used 12 times in the NT(11 times by Jesus). Always translated

[Guest man]

No,.....it's not.

Where in the Word does it state that "the second death" equals nonexistence?

I quoted a few of them back on page 1, here they are again:

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ~ Matthew 7:13

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" ~ Romans 9:22

"Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things." ~ Phillipians 3:19

"But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly" ~ 2 Peter 3:7

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" ~ 2 Thessalonians 1:9

Pay particular attention to the last one or two - "the punishment of eternal destruction", "the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly". When has destruction ever been a synonym for suffering????? Moving back to the Revelation 20 question, When has death ever been a synonym for suffering????? As far as I know, it hasn't, and Revelation 20:14 state "the lake of fire is the second death. It is not "the second place where people are punished for eternity". I think the fact that the fate of the devil, false prophet and beast (and I agree this is pain and suffering) is dealt with separately to the fate of the rest of humanity, which is only ever described as "the second death".

There are more, but I don't ahve time to search them up right at this stage All the best,

The verses you posted say nothing about non-existence.

Why, out of the countless multitudes that will end up in the lake of fire, is He only going to punish 3 individuals? That doesn't make any sense. How is that righteous judgment? And what about all the evil spirits that are present today? Is the Lord going to give them a free pass? Of all the demons that walk the earth today, satan is the only one that is going to be punished?

Out of the countless multitudes that will stand in judgment before God, only 3 will end up being punished?

He warns us about eternal damnation. How can one be damned for eternity if they don't exist? Why does He warn us about being cast into everlasting fire?

If the end result of disobedience is nonexistence, tell me where the bad is in that. There is no pain in nonexistence. There's no suffering, there's no grief, there's no remorse. There's nothing. That doesn't make any sense.

If I were to follow the doctrine you're trying to push off on us, I could just throw away my bible and go about my business. It wouldn't matter whether I followed God or not, because in the end there would be no punishment. I could follow God and hopefully enter His kingdom, or I could just go about life as if God didn't exist. Either way, in the end there is no punishment.

Your doctrine makes the blood of Christ worthless.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Gehenna = a real place.

Hell = a real place.

Jesus was using a visual affect so the people would understand just how bad hell is.

You explained away Mark 9:42-48, which I respectfully disagree, but what about these verse? Or does the earliest and most reliable known text not include these verse either? Not trying to be persnickety I realy want to know.

Matthew 5:21-23 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

21`Ye heard that it was said to the ancients: Thou shalt not kill, and whoever may kill shall be in danger of the judgment;

22but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.

23`If, therefore, thou mayest bring thy gift to the altar, and there mayest remember that thy brother hath anything against thee,

Matthew 5:28-30 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

28but I -- I say to you, that every one who is looking on a woman to desire her, did already commit adultery with her in his heart.

29`But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

30`And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Matthew 5:29-31 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

29`But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

30`And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

Matthew 10:27-29 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

27that which I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light, and that which you hear at the ear, proclaim on the house-tops.

28`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Matthew 18:8-10 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

8`And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during. 9`And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.

Matthew 23:14-16 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

14`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye eat up the houses of the widows, and for a pretence make long prayers, because of this ye shall receive more abundant judgment.

15`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.

Matthew 23:32-34 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain

32and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers.

33`Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Gehenna: A translation of the Aramaic form of Heb.ge-ben-hinnom, valley of the son of Hinnom.

The valley of Ben Hinnom (NIV) or the valley of the son of Hinnom (KJV,RSV,ASV) A valley west and SW of Jerusalem that formed part of the border between Judah and Benjamin( Josh 15:8; cf.18:16; Neh 11:30-310). Here Ahaz(2 Kings 16:3; 2 Chron 28:3) and Manasseh (2 Kings 21:6; 2 Chron 33:6) sacrified their sons to Molech. For this reason Josiah defiled the place (2 Kings 23:10).

After the OT period, Jewish apocalyptic writers began to to call the Valley of Hinnom the entrance to hell, later hell itself. The NT distinguishes sharply between Hades, the intermediate, bodiless state, and Gehenna, the state of final punishment after the resurrection of the body. Gehenna existed before the judgment (Matt 25:41) The word is used 12 times in the NT(11 times by Jesus). Always translated

[Guest shiloh357]

But you could make a case that compared to eternal joy, worshipping and living with our God forever, ceasing to exist is pretty rotten.

But if one cease to exist, there would be nothing. No joy, no pain.....nothing. It wouldn't be rotten because that person wouldn't be here to feel rotten. There would just be nothing. There would be no saddness because they are missing out on the joy of eternal life. There would be nothing.

So you think non-believers should feel rotten for eternity? I don't want what you think the Bible says, I want your personal view - do you think non-beleivers should suffer for all eternity for not believing? Because that is the impression I get when I read your post.

You are content in your salvation, but when it comes to those who aren't saved, I get this vibe that you won't be content unless they suffer, to know that they have done wrong, and to know this for all eternity. I could be wrong, of course. We do all agree there will be a second resurrection, of all people, and at this stage, their fate will be sealed -

"Fate" is a pagan concept. There is no "fate" where one's eternal life is concerned. Your eternal destination is sealed the minute you die. There is no second chance after you leave this world. Some will be resurrected to live eternal life, and others will be raised to eternal condemnation, and that depends on whether or not you have accepted Christ in THIS life.

I also don't think man intended to convey the idea that he would not be satisfied unless nonChristians suffer that is an unfair value to assign to his remarks. None of us take any pleasure in anyone going to hell.

[ParanoidAndroid]

The verses you posted say nothing about non-existence.

Exactly what part of the word "destruction" was unclear, particularly, passages such as "their punishment will be destruction"??? As I said, I have never heard "destruction" used as a synonym for "punishment". Have you? I haven't. Never in literature that I have ever read. "Destruction" has always had the implications of being destroyed forever, completely devastated, wasted, and other synonyms.

Why, out of the countless multitudes that will end up in the lake of fire, is He only going to punish 3 individuals? That doesn't make any sense. How is that righteous judgment? And what about all the evil spirits that are present today? Is the Lord going to give them a free pass? Of all the demons that walk the earth today, satan is the only one that is going to be punished?

Out of the countless multitudes that will stand in judgment before God, only 3 will end up being punished?

He warns us about eternal damnation. How can one be damned for eternity if they don't exist? Why does He warn us about being cast into everlasting fire?

As I said, I don't think Jesus warns us about etenral damnation. He warns us of eternal destruction, of being caught in the fires of gehenna where our body will rot for eternity, but nothing of our eternal soul. Our eternal life is a gift given by God as a result of Jesus.

As for the punishment, I would refer to the only reference of "hell" as a place of torture - 2 Peter 2:4, the only place in the entire Bible the word tartaros is used in direct reference to a place of punishment, in which only the devil and the angels that followed him are ever described as being chained in. Humanity as a species, we shall be Judged according to our deeds. I'm not going to make comments about what that Judgement will take, but ultimately, for those whose name is not found in the Book of Life, the final Judgement is that "Death and Hades will be cast into the Lake of fire. The lake of Fire is the SECOND DEATH" (Revelation 20:14-15). Not a "second place of torment and pain". that place is reserved for the devil and his angels, and separate to the "Lake of fire and brimestone" in verse 10 of this chapter (however subtle the difference may be). Simply "second death". As an aside, I've never heard of "death" being used as a synonym for punishment either, except for those that are already living, which would not apply to this definition.

If the end result of disobedience is nonexistence, tell me where the bad is in that. There is no pain in nonexistence. There's no suffering, there's no grief, there's no remorse. There's nothing. That doesn't make any sense.

I don't want to sound too harsh, but your comment here seems to give the impression that if you are not a believer then you deserve punishment, and you won't be happy unless they are punished (ceasing to exist is not good enough for you). Is God so petty that he would want those who chose to disobey to exist as such for eternity?

If I were to follow the doctrine you're trying to push off on us, I could just throw away my bible and go about my business. It wouldn't matter whether I followed God or not, because in the end there would be no punishment. I could follow God and hopefully enter His kingdom, or I could just go about life as if God didn't exist. Either way, in the end there is no punishment.

But you would miss out on the joys of eternal Life, wouldn't you!!!! Wouldn't that be tragic????? I consider it so. I'm looking forward to eternity with God - aren't you? So why would you throw your Bible away? For a few years of debauchery on Earth????

Your doctrine makes the blood of Christ worthless.

I disagree. I think it makes it even more precious. I think your doctrine makes God out to be a ruthless, heartless sadist - making people pay infinite punishment for finite sins. "My doctrine" (what I think the Bible teaches) shows the multitudes of believers celebrating in paradise, while those who chose to disobey received their rewards in full in this life, and that is the only life they get. The Blood of Jesus saves those who put their Trust in his name - how does that make the blood of Christ worthless?

[ParanoidAndroid]

"Fate" is a pagan concept. There is no "fate" where one's eternal life is concerned. Your eternal destination is sealed the minute you die. There is no second chance after you leave this world. Some will be resurrected to live eternal life, and others will be raised to eternal condemnation, and that depends on whether or not you have accepted Christ in THIS life.

I also don't think man intended to convey the idea that he would not be satisfied unless nonChristians suffer that is an unfair value to assign to his remarks. None of us take any pleasure in anyone going to hell.

If you could, could you please define "fate" as you intended it. I used the word, but I wanted to know what you meant by the term "fate". I agree that there is no second chance once we leave this world (actually, that's not entirely true, since the Bible says nothing of those who grew up never hearing of Jesus, there could be a "first chance" for these people once they are alreay dead, but it is speculation). Regardless, I half-agree with your statement. Some will be resurrected to live eternal life, but others will be resurrected to be brought to eterna destruction, and that depends on whether or not you have accepted Christ in this life.

As for Man's comments, I understand the meaning. I am not implying he derives "pleasure" from the ideas of non-Chrsitians suffering, but I do get the distinct impression that unless there is a punishment for those who don't believe (and by "punishmetn", I mean physical torture of some kind), his views won't be validated. I think God is too loving for that, and i have provided quote after quote to support my view (though obviously it is contentious), I can't see God punishing finite sins with an infinite punishment. It is not fair, for lack of a better term, it is not Justice, and I believe my God is a God of complete Justice (hence the reason he won't let everyone into heaven, because sin must be payed for).

But I digress. I've said enough on this thread. My views are clear.

All the best, shiloh. thanks for the discussion.