The purpose driven church

[Spiritual Warrior]

That's good!!

[Marilyn777]

Sorry guys I think your arguments are weak! I don't for a second believe its a 'man pleasing' church God is the whole reason the church is there in the first place. The fact that Rick began the church in a small backroom group to begin with and now it has to grown to gigantic proportions is a testament to the power of God right there. If He didn't want it to grow it wouldn't have got to where it is today.

When God has His hand on something and it is according to His will then He will bless it abundantly. And to me this is a sure sign that God has poured out His blessings in a big way. And how can you say that Saddleback doesn't mention the devil or teach people how to keep him in check. Good grief people anytime a soul makes a decision for Christ is another hot poker through his eye! Satan hates nothing worse then to see another person come to Christ.

And Rick's book isn't about Spiritual warfare in the first place that isn't the topic of the book so why would he talk about it. I think you are grasping at straws here to find things to complain about because this church is so successful. Whats wrong with a successful church cannot God bless this church, are you saying because it is so successful that Satan is behind it. Thats absurd!

And so what if they have arcades for children, so what if its people friendly. Personally I would rather spend my time in place that not only glorifies God, that is a safe environment for my kids and they learning about God while they play, then in a place where children are to be seen and not heard, where if you happen to cough or sneeze everyone glares at you for disturbing the sanctity of the 'service'. Sorry but these stuffy churches are in the past we live in a whole different world now then 40 years ago, or even New Testament times.

This is a fast paced high tech society, where people now a days have the attention span of a fork! So in order to get people even in the door right now you have to appeal to where they are in this society, be it computers, games, dramas, music, powerpoint or what have you. You can't live in the past, Churches have got to keep up with the times, if they don't they die. I can't tell you how many churches are closing their doors even here in my area because no body goes anymore.

If we had a Saddleback here it draw thousands into the doors because of their appealing format. And there is nothing wrong with their format, they worship the same God, at least they are preaching Salvation I have never even heard the world salvation mentioned in my church. Good heavens that would offend somebody, God is a God of Love and Peace we don't need to hear that stuff. Well what if Jesus comes tomorrow then those people are lost to Satan for ever. And my friends that is pretty darn scary!

I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, because I think Saddleback and others like it are vital to our society today they are reaching people that normally would not darken the door of a church with the good news of the gospel, and that is not a bad thing! You guys can run it down all you like but I will defend it because I know God has blessed it and thats why its growing and it continues to grow.

We don't know the mind of Christ, how someone can say that you shouldn't worship this way or that way is better is crazy. If it brings glory to God and brings people into His kingdom then it will continue to be blessed by Him. If it no longer continues to do that or if wickedness and sin enter in then it will fall, God will close it down just like He did with The PTL Club and others like it. So I guess we will have to wait and see what happens right? Until then I think the format is great and I support it 110%.

Singing A New Song

Marilyn

[Mrs Mac]

"Warren sits in a spacious office on the 'campus' of his Saddleback Church in the prosperous Lake Forest suburb of Orange County. He is on a mission that stretches far beyond Saddleback, far beyond America even. That mission is world domination. 'We need a billion footsoldiers,' he said 'If you love Jesus, we are on the same team."

"Added to that is Warren's enormous network of pastors who have received training through his classes or internet site. He has now trained 300,000 pastors across the globe. Some 125,000 of them get his weekly email that includes his latest sermon, which they then can deliver to their congregations. "

http://www.rense.com/general54/onmn.htm

This is a big move within the Church. I live in New Zealand and the churches have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

My personal take on it is Kingdom Theology, whereby the church is involved in establishing the kindgom of God on earth and then Jesus can return. Some think the church is the Kingdom of God, but however they look at it they are out to christianize the nations. This guy seems to be the Pope of the Kingdom Movement.

I'm just wondering if in establishing a Christian culture they are overlooking the instruction to take the gospel. Is Rick's style mega church being filled with born again believers or pseudo christians? Time will tell.

I do not believe that this is a move of God but God is allowing the church to have its way. It wants seeker sensitive, (like Israel wanting a king) God gives us seeker sensitive.

It is part of the end time apostasy and the church that will go into the Tribulation under the great delusion.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The Scriptures preceding this one tells us that those who do not have a love of the truth will follow the Antichrist.

I find that the majority of Christians and Pastors are rather ho hum about all of this. They do not seem to be concerned that church goers have lost their love of the truth.

I have come to the conclusion that we can't fight it, we have to pray and learn how to live with it without being involved in the lies.

We must realize that Rick Warren is not an evil man out to destroy the church. He believes that he has a mandate from God to bring churches and people up to their highest potential. Like corporate planning and training.

Well, I'm not one of his footsoldiers,

Mrs Mac

[Spiritual Warrior]

Sorry guys I think your arguments are weak! I don't for a second believe its a 'man pleasing' church God is the whole reason the church is there in the first place.

Can you state where our arguments are weak.

The church is not a building. It is the body of Christ. That doesn't mean that everything that comes along in the name of Jesus is of Jesus. And I'm sure that you are glad that people have "fun" there. And I believe that relating to people is good and biblical. But somewhere you have to draw the line. And give people the message of "the wages of sin is death!!" Having the latest and greatest facilities and avoiding preaching about sin and hell may draw a big crowd (Isa 30:10). But I don't want any sugar with my medicine, give it to me straight. As Ray Comfort likes to say, "the sugar that goes with medicine can take away from the medicinal purposes."

To me it promotes entertainment evangelism, and usually the ones that like this are people who would rather be entertained "have fun" than be preached at!

How do you interpret II Timothy 4:3 - "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves, teachers, having itching ears;" and Isaiah 30:10 - ".....speak unto us those smooth things."

[serotta]

Yahsway said:

The pentegon has just ordered 26,000 copies of Purpose Driven Life. Rick Warren has said his last mission here on earth is to bring about "Globel Peace". Am I missing something here? Yeshua is the prince of Peace and is the only One who will bring this about.

Could you provide your source for this information? I'd like to read what it actually says. Thanks

[serotta]

servinghim said:

they also have arcades for the children .... my son has gone with his friend, and everytime, he comes home saying he wants to go there because they have so much fun...arcades!!!!! But then back to reality for him. We worship Christ in the Catholic Church...not go get entertained with arcades that are free!!!

So it is wrong for a church to create a place for children to go and have fun? I would much rather see kids spend a Saturday afternoon at a church "arcade" then have them hanging around the mall. Do you seriously think that the kids are playing at the arcade INSTEAD of going to church service? That's ridiculous, it's IN ADDITION to church service.

[Spiritual Warrior]

So it is wrong for a church to create a place for children to go and have fun?

I pesonally believe that it is because (I Believe) that it opens the door to bring people in for the wrong reasons. But the real issue here, is avoiding preaching on sin, hell and judgement day in order to make people feel more "comfortable". (jmo) This create rocky seed converts (Mark 4:16) Read Hell's best kept Secret by Ray Comfort and Hard to Believe by John MacArthur (good books).

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears;" - II Tim. 4:3

Edited August 23, 2004 by Spiritual Warrior

[Yahsway]

Good one TSTH. If we truly want to know our future, it might be a good thing to look back to the past. It was given for our instruction, right?

Serotta, I read this in a christina newspaper that is established in Chattanooga, Tn. As i am writing this to you i am searching for it in my house. Hope I didnt throw it away. I believe it is called "The Fish". It is a multi-denominational christian publication that comes out once a month there in Chattanooga, and has all the latest revivals, singings, and so forth published in it for that area. Rick Warren was to be a quest speaker there in the city bringing togethere people of faith and it is all published there in that magazine. I will search to see if they have a website. But i do not want you to take my word for it, I would like for you to read it for yourself.

Maybe also on Rick Warrens site it may give his itenerary, I think that he was to be in Chattanooga this month. I will get it for you. be blessed

[Yahsway]

Serotta, I found the website to the paper I refered to above, it is www.readfish.com. Now mind you I read that in July 2004, and they still have only May 2004 up on their site, but they still have articles there on his coming to Chattanooga.

Also, if you go to www.letusreason.org/popteac26.htm, you will see where they direct you to Rick warrens site at www.saddleback.com/peaceplan. I went there and the page had been taken off.

But at letusreason, they have taken ecerpts from his site and I think you will find it very interesting. I also meant that the pentegons chaplains have ordered 26,000 copies of his book.

Anyway, go there and let me know your views. There is also a good article called The Pied Pipers of Purpose, Ill get that site for you.

be blessed

[serotta]

To be honest Yahways, I put very little store in what they say at "letusreason". To me they often seem petty and/or vindictive and at times I think they misrepresent what is truly being said. Here is a direct link to SaddleBacks efforts:

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/todaystory.asp?id=6739

I think this looks like a great program, and I will be looking into it for our church.

Editted to add:

Here is what Saddleback uses the acronym PEACE for:

Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan

P lant Churches

E quip Servant Leaders

A ssist the Poor

C are for the Sick

E ducate the Next Generation