Women in ministry

[stevehut]

1- A woman was the first evangelist to preach the good news that Jesus had risen from the dead. And the male disciples didn't believe her. That is, until they ran to the tomb and found it empty.

2- There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

1- You're not keeping up, Willow. We already covered that. She was giving a personal testimony, not preaching a sermon. Nothing in that report endowed any kind of authority on her part.

2- Nothing here about a church setting. This is about each person's individual's standing before God.

[stevehut]

1- Some scriptures override other scriptures, when the whole counsel of God is considered.

2- As soon as the Bible tells me that there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ

1- You're playing a very dangerous game there, soshine. You stand in the place of God to decide which verse "overrides" the other? Sorry, I thought the whole Bible was God's word.

2- False argument. Nothing here about a church setting. This is about each person's individual's standing before God.

[stevehut]

From the beginning God meant for woman to be man's helpmate, a mate suitable for him. There are other verses I could pull up but I am certain you know them sis. The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul for many that pertain to this subject. I believe women are equally loved by God, but I do not believe our "roles" were meant to be the same.

AMEN

[stevehut]

I don't want to get all wordy about it, but suffice it to say, the Church, men taking the helm, has misinterpreted the scriptures concerning our roles.

??

Which church is this?

[stevehut]

However other Christian denominations have been ordaining women for many decades, so we do have choices depending on our convictions and interpretation of scripture. I don't think we should tear each other up over this issue

Interesting take there, Smalcald (if I understand correctly)

Any women who want to serve as preachers, there are plenty of places you can go. No need to make trouble at your existing church.

[Smalcald]

However other Christian denominations have been ordaining women for many decades, so we do have choices depending on our convictions and interpretation of scripture. I don't think we should tear each other up over this issue

Interesting take there, Smalcald (if I understand correctly)

Any women who want to serve as preachers, there are plenty of places you can go. No need to make trouble at your existing church.

Yes this is my feeling. I think the issue is settled; some congregations went one way and some went the other, at this point continual agitation is neither needed nor helpful within congregations. Also it is troubling to me personally to belong to a Christian congregation that does not have set beliefs and doctrine over time, what is going to be up for debate next? I am a traditionalist I must admit, so maybe my own personal leanings have pushed me toward a traditionalist church and traditionalist literal understanding of scripture, I do admit this. I don't have a huge problem with people who don't agree with me on this issue. My only warning is to really look at what has happened to the major mainline Protestant denominations in the US that started ordaining women in the 1960's and 1970's (before 1960 almost no Christian denominations ordained women) and look at what has happened since, it seems as if it is just one debate after another with them as each new social issue sweeps the country.

[OneLight]

However other Christian denominations have been ordaining women for many decades, so we do have choices depending on our convictions and interpretation of scripture. I don't think we should tear each other up over this issue

Interesting take there, Smalcald (if I understand correctly)

Any women who want to serve as preachers, there are plenty of places you can go. No need to make trouble at your existing church.

Yes this is my feeling. I think the issue is settled; some congregations went one way and some went the other, at this point continual agitation is neither needed nor helpful within congregations. Also it is troubling to me personally to belong to a Christian congregation that does not have set beliefs and doctrine over time, what is going to be up for debate next? I am a traditionalist I must admit, so maybe my own personal leanings have pushed me toward a traditionalist church and traditionalist literal understanding of scripture, I do admit this. I don't have a huge problem with people who don't agree with me on this issue. My only warning is to really look at what has happened to the major mainline Protestant denominations in the US that started ordaining women in the 1960's and 1970's (before 1960 almost no Christian denominations ordained women) and look at what has happened since, it seems as if it is just one debate after another with them as each new social issue sweeps the country.

Funny how that started about the same time that the secular Feminist Movement became popular in mainstream America. Just My Opinion ...

[sistercindy]

Funny how that started about the same time that the secular Feminist Movement became popular in mainstream America. Just My Opinion ...

hummmm.....Great point OneLight

[Ovedya]

Yes, actually it is your problem. Because rather than believe the Bible is the complete Word of God, you have decided that it is something less, beholden to your personal preferences and comfort zone issues.

Where is the Biblical precedent for a female overseer - elder -which coordinates with today's "pastors"? Where is there a single woman mentioned as being in charge of a local church in the Bible? There isn't one. Phoebe was not an apostle, she was not an overseer or elder, she was a "deaconess." I've already shown you how the word in Greek is in the feminine form when it refers to Phoebe. The translators didn't suddenly decide to change the Greek because of their misogynistic tendencies. There simply is no evidence that they changed the word at all, in any way.

No. I believe the Word of God to be inerrant, and complete.

The translators changed her role to "servant" instead of 'minister" when they encountered a female name. It's understandable. However, it is not acceptable in that light for people today to mistranslate that she was not a minister of the church as any other man was, and to perpetuate a misogynistic mindset where God does not.

I'm finally back to this discussion. I was not going to bring this back up, but after some deliberation I thought it would be good to continue. This is an important subject that I think would be beneficial for us all to complete (If possible).

To begin with, FA, I think that you need to establish a provable pattern with regard to the problem of translation and the motivation behind it. You essentially creating a kind of conspiracy theory here based on what I feel is a personal prejudice of yours. Where and how do you intend to prove conclusively that the translators of the Bible purposefully changed the meaning of God's Word? Because that's what you're essentially saying here: That the translators came to this verse of Scripture and reasoned to themselves, "We cannot have a woman having pastoral authority here, because women are inferior to men. Therefore we'll change the wording so that her role here is diminished."

This is something that you believe: The translators purposefully changed the Word of God to diminish the role of Phoebe. Therefore I cannot see how you can say that you believe the Word of God is complete and inerrant. First you are pointing out an error. Second you are saying that it was changed. If it was changed than it is incomplete. If it was changed than it is in error.

[Ovedya]

Satan has attacked the church in 5 areas: The workforce (he halved it), men and their ministry (affected by Pride), women (abuse, denigration, denial and robbed of identity), God's character (bias against women shows the world that God is unjust), God's image (Satan uses the rejection issue and emotional woundings to destroy the revelation of the image of God through the unity of man and woman in all areas). Satan hates us, folks! He loves this discord and this misunderstanding of God's intent for all of us to be equally serving Him, shoulder to shoulder as He created us in the first place! In Christ, we can show the world exactly how it is supposed to be...not buying into the culture that has hated women for centuries. The Greeks hated women, and the Romans also. That is how our culture is influenced.

Grace to you,

I fail to see where the Church has bought into the culture of hating women.

Pleases explain.

Peace,

Dave

Hi, Dave,

I don't want to get all wordy about it, but suffice it to say, the Church, men taking the helm, has misinterpreted the scriptures concerning our roles. It is the bias of the great Greek and Roman empires that has pervaded each generation, fading only slightly as the Church marches onward. The hatred of Satan toward woman has been made a subtle, palatable thing--- but denial of service is not so subtle to a woman who is gifted and called by God. He holds everyone, male or female accountable for saying, "No" to God, or standing between a called woman and her LORD.

Essentially you are saying that these cultures permeated the Word of God. If that is so, then it is not the Word of God. If the Bible contains even a single element of humanity (That is, fallen humanity) than it can not be the Word of God.

Neither the Bible nor the church has ever withheld "service" from a woman. Women have always been free to have service roles in the church. Women are permitted to minister the Word to others, and to preach the gospel. But as to a woman participating in the specific roles which involve the defining of doctrine and governing the direction of the local churches the Bible is very clear: They are not permitted.

You really attempt to blur the lines of distinction between these responsibilities when you claim that woman can, "Minister as a minister ministers." That simply is not true. It never has been true. To "minister" is literally "to be a [public] servant." In some cases it refers to a role - "ministerial role" in the church and in others it means "to minister to, to feed, to nourish" as the Lord was "ministered" to by the angels in the wilderness. All saints, regardless of gender or age, should be ministers of Christ Jesus. Yet not all are given to be ministers in the sense of having the responsibility of governing a local church.