Women in ministry

[methinkshe]

was not meaning to indicate that was how i new i was called by the Lord (the 98% vote). What i meant was that i knew i was called and knew what the Lord wanted from me and I new the vote would come out correctly.....as God would had put this on my heart so strongly....so instead of the traditional 80% vote (required in many churches for all staff positons, for approval) i asked for 98%.... that was not meaning i was using that to confirm my calling..... so understand, my calling is from God and i follow it.

I guess the question would be if the scriptures indicate that certain positions in the local church cannot be held by women, why would a person go to God and ask Him if it is permissible?

I actually believe that the whole concept of ecclesistical positions (or offices) within the church is unbiblical.

There is only service.

The one thing that is forbidden to women is to teach men and usurp their authority and thus nullify their responsibility.

There are no offices- as in hierarchical positions - only differeneces in types of service.

We are ALL servants. There should be no such thing as "positions" in the local church, with the attendant implication of "offices" and a hierarchy of office, only a variety of service.

The limitations on women are an exclusion of service and not an exclusion of office.

[sistercindy]

Some say that Lydia was a pastor but if we reseach the word minister which is in some versions of the bible is speaking of a "servent" of the Lord and not a pastor.

Yup. Doesn't mean that she was a preacher with authority over men.

yep I would say it's sounding like we are all in agreement: Leadership over the church itself, the positions of authority over the daily working and preaching, etc, belongs to men...as scripture supports. I do believe God calls women to service, however, as Acts and others verses of scripture tells us.. even men and women will be called in these "last days".... but called in accordance with scripture. Women can serve as music leaders, as youth ministers, children's ministers...that is NOT giving authority over the workings of the church, but allowing women, as called by God Himself... to serve. Those He calls He will equip!

Don't let the word minister trip you or anyone....its a matter of serving. Pastor? Deacons? Elders? These who do the overall work of running the entire church? God has given that to men...praise the Lord . I pray the Christian men in the Lord will continue to "step up" and lead..... I will certainly follow, as men do the work of the church in accordance with scripture.

God Bless

[stevehut]

I actually believe that the whole concept of ecclesistical positions (or offices) within the church is unbiblical.

There is only service.

Huh?

Eph 4

It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers...

why?

to prepare God's people for works of service

Service is the very reason why offices are needed.

[Willow325]

Friends, my church is about to embark upon the "debate" of women in ministry, especially wanting to include women as deacons. I am on staff at my church as youth minister...(female youth minister, baptist church). I too have struggled with this doctrinal question...the questions raised in 1 Tim chapter 3.

I pray this issue doesn't split our church but i know there are many on both sides of this doctrinal question. Myself? I felt a strong leading 5 years ago to serve the youth in my community as youth minister. It's the strongest leading i've ever had from the Lord, a true calling by the Lord. My church completely supported me and voted me in....98% "yes" to vote me in. So i know the Lord calls women.... However on the subject of deacons in the church, this congregation differes greatly. I too, struggle with what the Lord wants us to do in the area of women as deacons. I'm prayerfully wrestling with this topic along with my church.

Would any of you be willing to give me your prayful insights on this topic? What has God revealed to you on this subject? How does the scripture read to you? Your interpretation please. God Bless!

My thoughts on the subject are that since women were basically thought of as property back in the Old and New Testaments, it would seem unlikely that women would be looked at as a potential pastor or deaconess, at that time. I could be wrong but everything I've read in the Bible, especially the New Testament doesn't mention women being saved. They would be saved through having a family and being faithful to her husband. But that sounds nutty. Of course women have to be saved on their own apart from their husband.

I've noticed that women are rarely mentioned in the Old or New Testaments unless they were part of the family tree of Jesus Christ, or played some significant role in the Bible. At one time, in this country, women were not included in the Constitution. They didn't have the same rights as men. At one time, in this country, during the time of slavery, Africans were thought of as being non-human. The Jews of the Holocaust were thought of as being non-human.

Women had very few rights, in the Bible. They couldn't touch a man in public, which was why the woman who reached out and touched the fringe on Jesus' robe was afraid, at first, to admit she was the one who touched Him. Women were simply property back then.

And with that mind set, why would a man want a piece of property telling him what to do. It would be like asking your shoes to become the pastor of your church. Women were and still are considered property in some countries. I think it was last year that 9 women became Presidents over 9 different countries. And one of the women was assassinated by a particular group of men who didn't want a woman as President. Why? Because in that country, those men felt that women should not be in public office because they are inferior.

Paul did what he could to try and break away from that mindset and even mentioned the women by name and asked the members of the churches to help them out in anyway that they needed help. But what happened after Paul died? If you read up on the history of the church, it won't be a happy read.

Why do people, today, think that women should not be pastors? A woman was the first evangelist to preach the good news that Jesus had risen from the dead. And the male disciples didn't believe her. That is, until they ran to the tomb and found it empty.

I know the Bible states that a woman should not rule over a man. But what does that really mean. Rule. Pastors don't rule over their church members. They teach and admonish and encourage. Perhaps we, here in America, are so used to men holding positions of leadership and power that to think of a woman holding such a position would seem unnatural when it actually is not.

So what is the purpose of a pastor?

Ephesians 4:11-13 NIV It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers... to prepare God's people for works of service so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

So then, a male pastor could do that better?

And then there's that familiar chapter in Galatians 3:26-29

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Now, if God looks at us as not being either male nor female, free nor slave, Greek nor Jew, since it is our spirit that is in union with him, not our flesh, why haven't we caught onto that teaching and treat each other the same way. We don't worship God in our flesh, but in our spirit. Our bodies weren't born again, it was our spirit. And aren't we to look at each other from a spiritual point of view and not to look at each other from a fleshly point of view.

If God sees us as being completely equal in Christ, why does the church have a problem with women being pastors? Do you think God thinks women are inferior? Not from what I just read.

Willow325

[soshine]

Friends, my church is about to embark upon the "debate" of women in ministry, especially wanting to include women as deacons. I am on staff at my church as youth minister...(female youth minister, baptist church). I too have struggled with this doctrinal question...the questions raised in 1 Tim chapter 3.

I pray this issue doesn't split our church but i know there are many on both sides of this doctrinal question. Myself? I felt a strong leading 5 years ago to serve the youth in my community as youth minister. It's the strongest leading i've ever had from the Lord, a true calling by the Lord. My church completely supported me and voted me in....98% "yes" to vote me in. So i know the Lord calls women.... However on the subject of deacons in the church, this congregation differes greatly. I too, struggle with what the Lord wants us to do in the area of women as deacons. I'm prayerfully wrestling with this topic along with my church.

Would any of you be willing to give me your prayful insights on this topic? What has God revealed to you on this subject? How does the scripture read to you? Your interpretation please. God Bless!

[/quote

Hi Sister Cindy

I may just be simple, but I have a theory. Some scriptures override other scriptures, when the whole counsel of God is considered. As soon as the Bible tells me that there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus, that, for me, ends all debate about women being in authority in the church. Christ has leveled the playing field. He ate with sinners and tax collectors. He touched lepers. He spoke with, and forgave the "dreaded" woman at the well. Everyone, rich and poor, male and female, of every race, of every nation on earth He has freely redeemed, by the shedding of His blood.

Every other biblical quote about authority has to BOW to HIS AUTHORITY, and so if He makes no difference between male and female, why should we?

Yours in Christ

soshine

[Scarletprayers]

Except your both taking the verse out of context and using it in a way it wasn't intended. And scripture is either true or it isn't, so some verses can't override other scripture, if that were so, then how can scripture be trusted. All one in Christ is saying, it doesn't matter who or what you are, we are all only saved through Christ and in Christ, and being one or the other Jew or Gentile, Man or Woman, Slave or Free doesn't give you more of a head start than anyone else.

[Smalcald]

was not meaning to indicate that was how i new i was called by the Lord (the 98% vote). What i meant was that i knew i was called and knew what the Lord wanted from me and I new the vote would come out correctly.....as God would had put this on my heart so strongly....so instead of the traditional 80% vote (required in many churches for all staff positons, for approval) i asked for 98%.... that was not meaning i was using that to confirm my calling..... so understand, my calling is from God and i follow it.

I guess the question would be if the scriptures indicate that certain positions in the local church cannot be held by women, why would a person go to God and ask Him if it is permissible?

I actually believe that the whole concept of ecclesistical positions (or offices) within the church is unbiblical.

There is only service.

The one thing that is forbidden to women is to teach men and usurp their authority and thus nullify their responsibility.

There are no offices- as in hierarchical positions - only differeneces in types of service.

We are ALL servants. There should be no such thing as "positions" in the local church, with the attendant implication of "offices" and a hierarchy of office, only a variety of service.

The limitations on women are an exclusion of service and not an exclusion of office.

Well in that case, if one believes that there are no scriptural positions or offices or leaders etc, then certainly there would be no reason to worry about roles for men or women or instructions concerning men or women's roles.

How do you address Paul's detailed instructions for the job requirements of a Bishop though?

[Guest celebratejesus]

From the beginning God meant for woman to be man's helpmate, a mate suitable for him. There are other verses I could pull up but I am certain you know them sis. The Holy Spirit speaking through Paul for many that pertain to this subject. I believe women are equally loved by God, but I do not believe our "roles" were meant to be the same. I am a single woman(divorced)and am not one that has ever felt the call from God to be in a ministrial position. But I do believe in the teaching of the Holy Spirit in reading the scriptures. I believe that God does not want women "over" men, ministering in any area that puts them over men. Yes, men do not always take up the role they are to take up, but I believe God will fill those positions with men, in His time. I believe women need to step back or down from even considering it. I had a women stop corresponding with me because I told her what I believed about her "position" as a pastor in the church. If nothing else, it told me that she had a problem with it also or she would not have taken offense. If I take offense at something a christian is saying to me in love, I need to check the true source of that "hurt feeling" I see no where that women are not to lead. So please don't misunderstand. Just not "lead" men. By the way, I've never been the submissive type. But God is teaching me:) And only to be submissive to His Way. One more thing then I'll be quiet here Lately, not in this site, but on another, I have seen people(many non-believers)twist scripture so bad it's unrecognizable, almost. Lots of people use scripture and hear or see what they want it to. You sound as if you know scripture and so, I don't need to tell you, your final answer comes from God alone:) Any confusion we feel is not from God, but from satan.

ysic, denise:)

Friends, my church is about to embark upon the "debate" of women in ministry, especially wanting to include women as deacons. I am on staff at my church as youth minister...(female youth minister, baptist church). I too have struggled with this doctrinal question...the questions raised in 1 Tim chapter 3.

I pray this issue doesn't split our church but i know there are many on both sides of this doctrinal question. Myself? I felt a strong leading 5 years ago to serve the youth in my community as youth minister. It's the strongest leading i've ever had from the Lord, a true calling by the Lord. My church completely supported me and voted me in....98% "yes" to vote me in. So i know the Lord calls women.... However on the subject of deacons in the church, this congregation differes greatly. I too, struggle with what the Lord wants us to do in the area of women as deacons. I'm prayerfully wrestling with this topic along with my church.

Would any of you be willing to give me your prayful insights on this topic? What has God revealed to you on this subject? How does the scripture read to you? Your interpretation please. God Bless!

[sistercindy]

hi sister denise!! Thanks for your reply and your post!! I too agree with you, although i think many are not hearing me say, I too AGREE. Scripture is so clear...men are to be the leaders of the overall church...pastors, deacons, etc...are to be men. However, i do believe God wants and does call women to serve... To serve...as music leaders, youth leaders, childrens leaders, etc....but not to lead in areas that do with the overall workings of the church, or, to lead men... Men are called to these roles.... But praise be to our God, he calls us all to his Kingdoms work....as stated in Acts....2:17...."I will pour out my spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy....v18 even on my servants, both men and women I will pour out my spirit in those days and they will prophesy...

I agree with you sister, really do.

But i believe, in these days, God will call all of us to use our gifts, for His Glory and for His Kingdom...

I do pray that men will rise up and lead the church!!! We need our men to be the leaders.

thanks Denise, for your post!! God Bless!!

Cindy

[Guest celebratejesus]

Women are to witness. But we have to look at the "whole" Word of God. In this case, the establishment of the "Church" and how God set things up:) should not be left out. To say Mary found the tomb empty and started preaching is not what I see. I see her witnessing to the fact the tomb was empty and, she was wondering where He went.

With all due respect, denise

a woman was the first to preach he is risen.

Therefore...what?

Everyone has a personal testimony. I thought we were talking about church leadership here...