Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child

[Ovedya]

Simply put: Any believer who changes the Word of God to suit his own preconceptions of parenting and/or the means by which Christians should or should not live in accordance or harmony with the wisdom of this agewill find it hard to overcome this age and become members of the Bride which Christ desires. We have seen in the past 30 years an increase in the number of Biblical revisionists in secularism. That is no surprise. But the fact that so-called "Christians" have, and are, following such revisionism in lock-step with the secularists is, in my humble opinion, nothing less than commiseration with the Anti-Christ.

He is coming.

[ParanoidAndroid]

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'm not sure we can consider Proverbs to be "commands" from God in the sense that we must act this way and if we do not then we are not following God's word. Proverbs are "wisdom sayings", and while adhering to them may make life better, it does not necessarily mean they are commands (Solomon even gave contradictory proverbs because he saw the wisdom in one situation having different types of responses).

Allow me to use an example. A while back I was out with a friend of mine, and her five-year old child, Jack (not real name - changed for anonymity). We were in the shopping centre and as with many large chains of centres (what Americans would call "the mall"), there's a children's play-set somewhere near the food court. We sat down for a chat there while Jack went to play on the set. Instead of running up the slide or through one of the crawl spaces though, he started to climb the side netting and onto the top of the play set (this is not allowed, for obvious safety reasons). His mother yelled at him "Get down Jack, or you'll get a spanking". Jack continued on, and despite the warnings of spankings (and she would have spanked him too, it wasn't an empty threat) he continued to climb.

I thought I'd take matters into my own hands. I stood up and went over to the play set and called Jack down to ahve a little chat. He came down and I purposely stood next to the sign that said "no climbing on top of play set" I pointed to the sign and asked him if he understood what it meant. He read it, and said "yes". I then said "do you know WHY that sign is there"? He had no idea. He couldn't fathom the safety reasons. So I laid it out to him. I said "what if you slip and fall? It's a long way to the ground, you might get hurt, or worse. How would that make your mum feel"?

Suddenly he understood. Not only did he not climb the side again, but he started calling to the other kids who were on the top (who's parents didn't care were climbing on the top). He started saying "Hey, you need to get down, it's not safe, how would your parents feel if you fell?"

Problem solved - not a spank to be seen, just outlining what he was doing wrong, and helping him to understand why it was wrong. Would the problem have been solved if I went up and said "you'll get a smack, just like mommy said"? Doubtful, because he didn't understand WHY he was doing the wrong thing. Spankings don't help children learn why something is wrong, it only teaches them that there are painful consequences (spankings) if they do.

That said, I'm not advocating we don't spank our children - but far more important is teaching them WHY they should or should not do something, and Jack's illustration is a perfect example in action.

[Guest]

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

Simply put: Any believer who changes the Word of God to suit his own preconceptions of parenting and/or the means by which Christians should or should not live in accordance or harmony with the wisdom of this age will find it hard to overcome this age and become members of the Bride which Christ desires. We have seen in the past 30 years an increase in the number of Biblical revisionists in secularism. That is no surprise. But the fact that so-called "Christians" have, and are, following such revisionism in lock-step with the secularists is, in my humble opinion, nothing less than commiseration with the Anti-Christ.

He is coming.

Amen Brother, Amen!

Maranatha!

Wonder Food

Without The Word Of God

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

We Dine In The Mud With Swine

And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

Luke 15:16

Eat The Rot Of Our Sin And Our Wrath

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

But The Fruit Of The Holy Spirit Produces Love

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts

Galatians 5:22-24

Because We Feed On The Words Of Our Lord And Our God

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

John 15:3

We Will Live In Him And Grow Because Of Him

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:4

Leaning Upon His Holy Words

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 3:5-6

Feeding On Scripture

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

Trusting God

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:6

Rejoicing

But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

Psalms 5:11

Amen

Be Blessed Beloved Of The LORD

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21

[Axxman]

Simply put: Any believer who changes the Word of God to suit his own preconceptions of parenting and/or the means by which Christians should or should not live in accordance or harmony with the wisdom of this agewill find it hard to overcome this age and become members of the Bride which Christ desires. We have seen in the past 30 years an increase in the number of Biblical revisionists in secularism. That is no surprise. But the fact that so-called "Christians" have, and are, following such revisionism in lock-step with the secularists is, in my humble opinion, nothing less than commiseration with the Anti-Christ.

He is coming.

LOL...yes I'm commiserating with the anti-christ because I don't believe the bible tells me to literally beat my kids with a rod...LOL! Extreme much?

[Axxman]

..and not everybody who reads the bible and is preached to will be a Christian. Looking at the way that you see things is that if a spanked child turns out bad then either God is wrong or those scriptures are not talking about spanking.

My point in using the scriptures I did from the OT is to show that God is serious when it comes to the actions of our children and that we are responsible if we didn't try to do anything about it.

We did not do away with stoning children. God did and I would be very careful about calling God's law barbaric. Just because people do not agree with what the bible teaches does not make it wrong.

Of course, I agree that God is serious about how we raise our children, and I agree he holds us highly responsible for our children. The question is, how does God intend for us to do it. Let me ask you this...when did God stop the practice of stoning children?

Are you saying that God was joking? First you call God's law barbaric and then you say he was joking. No wonder you are having so much trouble with this. You don't take the bible seriously. It is interesting how that you will question the effectiveness of the scriptures before you would question the possibility that maybe somebody isn't doing the correction correctly.

I am asking the question...not making a statement. I've never questioned the validity of the scriptures. I think the scriptures are pretty common sense. I question the understanding of people who think that spanking is in the scriptures. Now don't get me wrong...I understand that you are just doing your best to raise Godly children and that you are using your understanding of the scriptures with the best of intent. I just happen to get a very different meaning and understanding from those scriptures.

Now you do bring up a very interesting point. You say its not the spanking that failed, but rather the correcting isn't being done correctly. I find it hard to believe that the bible would have people beat their kids with the rod of correction in such a way that will produce perfect children...but give absolutely NO advice or instruction on HOW to do it correctly. As you've already mentioned "spanking" isn't even in the bible. Its a man-made word, with man-made rules and opinions governing how it should be done. So how can you blame people for not spanking correctly? So, I don't question the effectiveness of the scriptures in regards to spanking because I don't believe the scriptures speak of spanking.

With everything, there needs to be proper application. You are only dealing with this in shades of white and black. Not every time a child acts up are they supposed to be beaten with a rod. Do you understand that? I ask because you are so opposed to spanking and the things you say against it. The spanking part comes when you have a VERY rebellious that won't take any form of correction. Spanking is the last resort. Because I used this method when my children were young they don't need to be spanked any more and they are 8 & 10 years old. They grew up knowing what discipline was and they mind and respect us and others. Minded, they still do get into trouble, but other forms are used now and they are not "problem children".

I'd like to make perfectly clear that I never said spanking can't be effective. Clearly, there is evidence that if you hit a kid when he does something wrong...he will learn from that. So will a puppy. However, you have already admitted that it is not foolproof. I'd also like to know which scriptures you used to verify that using the rod of correction is a "last resort." The bible says no such thing. In fact, the bible doesn't say when to stop spanking either. You said your kids still get into trouble, even at 8 & 10 yrs old, how do you know that your allowed to stop spanking them? No offense, but none of these "rules" you are applying are in the bible. My kids grew up knowing what discipline was, and they mind and respect us, and others.

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. - Proverbs 23:13-14

This is God's wisdom, not man's.

Thankfully this is God's wisdom. Unfortunately, man has used his own understanding. A little bit of common sense tells us two things right away...

A) According to the bible if you beat someone with a rod...they can die. And if they die from being beat with a rod...there is a punishment. So it makes almost NO SENSE for the bible to literally mean you can beat a child with a rod and they won't die. Because clearly, if you literally beat a child with a rod...they can die.

B) According to the bible there is only ONE WAY to save your soul...and it is not by being beat with a rod. There is simply no way that this is to be taken literally.

Isn't it possible that there is another meaning intended here? Am I soooo wrong for seeking a deeper understanding of these scriptures before I start administering corporal punishment on my kids? And if there is a way to raise Godly children without using the extremely vague rules and advice for spanking...shouldn't we all want to look into that?

[Ovedya]

Simply put: Any believer who changes the Word of God to suit his own preconceptions of parenting and/or the means by which Christians should or should not live in accordance or harmony with the wisdom of this agewill find it hard to overcome this age and become members of the Bride which Christ desires. We have seen in the past 30 years an increase in the number of Biblical revisionists in secularism. That is no surprise. But the fact that so-called "Christians" have, and are, following such revisionism in lock-step with the secularists is, in my humble opinion, nothing less than commiseration with the Anti-Christ.

He is coming.

LOL...yes I'm commiserating with the anti-christ because I don't believe the bible tells me to literally beat my kids with a rod...LOL! Extreme much?

That wasn't directed at you Axx, but yes, if you agree with the Biblical revisionists and deconstructionism, then you are commiserating with the Anti-Christ. This should come as no surprise to any Christian who knows Biblical prophecy. In these last days there are some among us who give heed to the doctrines of demons.

[irishcowboy]

As children, me and my brothers were often spanked by our dad. No matter what, if we did something bad, we usually got the belt, or a wooden spoon, or a spatula, or some other implement of punishment. Even when we were older we'd get spanked if we did something "bad."

Now that I take care of my nephew all the time, I look at him and think there is no way I could ever hit him, and I'm not sure when parents get over that and think it's an ok time to start hitting their kids.

I know alot of people, Christian people, will say it is ok to spank because it says it is ok in the Bible, and they usually come up with verses from Proverbs that pretty much say if you spare the rod, you spoil the child.

But as readers of the Bible, I think it is generally believed that King Solomon wrote this or at least was the inspiration behind these passages. And if Solomon was generally speaking about how to raise a child by telling us how he raised his own...wouldn't we also need to look at how well his son turned out? And since the Bible also mentions that his son grew up to be a mean, spiteful, and hateful person that had to run away to avoid being assassinated by his own people...wouldn't we have to put two and two together?

Solomon beat his son, son turns into a hateful beast that everyone wants to kill.

There was a spirit in this boys heart, that would not bow to authority... some people take things too personal, and blame others for their mistakes....... Adam, what is this thing you have done?????? IT WAS THAT WOMAN THAT YOU GAVE ME

Adam did not accept his responsibility, he was passing the blame, not only to Eve, but back to God......

God asked Eve, what is it that you have done? and Eve followed suite, and rather then standing up and taking responsibility for her actions, passed the blame also.......

Does spanking actually work? And is it really the best, biblical, Christian means of punishment?

I am proof that it does actually work, if done in love, there are many methods of punishment and discipline.... the belt/switch/paddle/spatula/spoon/hairbrush are only one means..... we also have to keep in mind that we must match the punishment with the crime..... playing with matches the first time around, talk, showing examples teaching about fire and the proper use of so the child knows, the next time (depending on the child) might be a couple swats or other moderately heavy punishment .... everything seems hunky dory for a time, then a neighbor comes up and tells you your child had a can of gas and a lighter behind the garage, no more time to be soft, or medium, it is time to drive the point home, not just for punishment, but due to a safety factor.....

with my sons, i never used anything but my hand on their backsides, one that is the most padded spot on the child, and two, i knew just how much i was putting down, for my hand also felt it....

Or as caregivers, do we use the Bible as an excuse, when really we're just doing what our parents did to us and what their parents did to them...just continuing the cycle.

No, I do not do as my parents did. they used switches belts and spatulas, i used my hand. many things we (my siblings) got spanked for, was talked through with my sons...... my grandson gets a swat when he is not doing as he should ( a single swat to get his attention, his swat is no more then placing the back of one hand to his but, and then clapping really loud using the other hand..... he feels the hand on his but, and then hears the smack when the two hands come together and that is all it takes to get his attention) he then listens to the instructions and follows the instructions..... He knows what is expected of him and is not bitter, but very loving.... and after a spank, there is a time for hugs and love

So I guess my question would be, is it really Biblical to spank your kids and expect them to turn out ok? Or are there times when spanking just isn't right?

Yes, I am alive, not in jail and doing very well because of and in spite of the punishments I received as a child...... I attribute my well being to the love my dad and mom had for me, to teach me respect for authority, to abide by the laws of the land, to treat others in a proper way, even though i may not agree with them. to follow the rules, no matter if i agree with them or not, My Dad (my step dad) was there for me when i needed him, not to bail me out, but to stand beside me when i was in trouble so that i could learn to be a man and stand up for my own actions...... to take responsibility for my own actions.... to teach me Gods ways, to be there no matter what....... and now, over 30 years after I left the nest, my dad is still there for me, and he is in his mid 70's..............

do we agree on everything? NO WAY..... we have many area's that we disagree on, but that does not come between us in our relationship.... some of these things we will never agree on during this life......

We will have to answer for our actions......

[soshine]

Hi Friend

I've had 4 kids, now grown up. I must say that people just love to pull things from the old testament out of context, to justify some iffy thing they are doing. The new covenant is an IMPROVEMENT on the old, and is based on better promises.

The primary rod of correction I used was a VERBAL rod of correction, not a physical one. Children are intelligent creatures. If you speak correction to them in the love of Christ, and in the Spirit of Christ, they still might not listen, (in which case you have the privilege of forgiving them), but surprisingly, they often DO listen. Then you really do have a victory, because you are talking to them as peers (we are all CHILDREN of God as Christians), and not just as parent figures. Remember, God is the TRUE parent, we hopefully just follow HIS lead.

Hope that helps,

Yours in Christ,

soshine

[Axxman]

I am proof that it does actually work, if done in love, there are many methods of punishment and discipline....

[

Sorry Bro...but this proves nothing. I happen to be proof that strangulation...throwing kids through a wall...punching...bleeding...absolute terror... DOES WORK!!! Sure, none of that stuff is in the bible...but if your criteria is..."Does it work?" Well, it sure worked on me! Of course spanking can work...its corporal punshment...its painful...its terrorizing. I would imagine that there is a fair amount of children that can be cowed by that type of punishment. By why do it if you don't have to? Why subject kids to terror and pain if kids can be raised to be Godly, respectful, people without it?

with my sons, i never used anything but my hand on their backsides, one that is the most padded spot on the child, and two, i knew just how much i was putting down, for my hand also felt it....

Here we have another issue... This isn't even in the bible. Now you are hitting your kids with your hand (not in the bible), on the most padded spot (not in the bible), so your hand would feel it (definitely not in the bible)...

Another issue that I have with spanking is that ALL of the rules are man-made. If you are gonna take the bible at its word and save your kids from hell...shouldn't you be willing to beat them with a rod just like it says?

No, I do not do as my parents did. they used switches belts and spatulas, i used my hand. many things we (my siblings) got spanked for, was talked through with my sons...... my grandson gets a swat when he is not doing as he should ( a single swat to get his attention, his swat is no more then placing the back of one hand to his but, and then clapping really loud using the other hand..... he feels the hand on his but, and then hears the smack when the two hands come together and that is all it takes to get his attention) he then listens to the instructions and follows the instructions..... He knows what is expected of him and is not bitter, but very loving.... and after a spank, there is a time for hugs and love

Ohhhhhhh.... I get it. So he thinks he is being hit harder than he actually is. Kind of like waterboarding...they only think they are drowning. You are just scaring him into obedience. BTW...thats not in the bible.

Yes, I am alive, not in jail and doing very well because of and in spite of the punishments I received as a child...... I attribute my well being to the love my dad and mom had for me, to teach me respect for authority, to abide by the laws of the land, to treat others in a proper way, even though i may not agree with them. to follow the rules, no matter if i agree with them or not, My Dad (my step dad) was there for me when i needed him, not to bail me out, but to stand beside me when i was in trouble so that i could learn to be a man and stand up for my own actions...... to take responsibility for my own actions.... to teach me Gods ways, to be there no matter what....... and now, over 30 years after I left the nest, my dad is still there for me, and he is in his mid 70's..............

Again...I turned out pretty good too. That isn't a justification for being beaten as a child though. My dad and I have a good relationship now. He doesn't look at himself as a great father because all his kids turned out to be good responsible people and Christians. My dad will tell you that he is nothing more than blessed by God that he didn't mess us up. And you know what...even though I don't physically beat my kids...I don't take credit for their lives either. It is just an absolutely flawed ideology to think that you have to beat kids in order to raise them to be Godly people.

If children can be raised without being "beat by the rod" and turn out to be Godly people...then it ONLY makes sense that the "spanking" verses are not to be taken literally, or no longer apply (like the stoning verses.)

*edited* After posting and re-reading I noticed I was being a bit flamboyant with my sarcasm. No insult or offense was intended. However, I chose not to change what I wrote because I think it makes the point.

[Guest jcpatterson]

As children, me and my brothers were often spanked by our dad. No matter what, if we did something bad, we usually got the belt, or a wooden spoon, or a spatula, or some other implement of punishment. Even when we were older we'd get spanked if we did something "bad."

Now that I take care of my nephew all the time, I look at him and think there is no way I could ever hit him, and I'm not sure when parents get over that and think it's an ok time to start hitting their kids.

I know alot of people, Christian people, will say it is ok to spank because it says it is ok in the Bible, and they usually come up with verses from Proverbs that pretty much say if you spare the rod, you spoil the child.

But as readers of the Bible, I think it is generally believed that King Solomon wrote this or at least was the inspiration behind these passages. And if Solomon was generally speaking about how to raise a child by telling us how he raised his own...wouldn't we also need to look at how well his son turned out? And since the Bible also mentions that his son grew up to be a mean, spiteful, and hateful person that had to run away to avoid being assasinated by his own people...wouldn't we have to put two and two together?

Solomon beat his son, son turns into a hateful beast that everyone wants to kill.

Does spanking actually work? And is it really the best, biblical, Christian means of punishment?

Or as caregivers, do we use the Bible as an excuse, when really we're just doing what our parents did to us and what their parents did to them...just continuing the cycle.

So I guess my question would be, is it really Biblical to spank your kids and expect them to turn out ok? Or are there times when spanking just isn't right?