I am Discouraged

[drayden]

Please let me clarify,I do love my husband very much but believe he is being misguided by his preacher,which he says he teaches the truths of predestination, defining Greek and Hebrew words from the bible.

I have prayed and tried to discuss this with my husband ,but as my example shows;

God is Willing That Any Should Perish

John 6:37 -- All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39 -- of All which He hath given me I should lose nothing--

II Peter 3:9 -- The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should come to repentance.

Men pervert the scripture saying God does not want any man to perish. " The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil (Prov. 16:4)". God loved Jacob and hated Esau, before either were born, and before either had done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand (Rom. 9:11-13). Paul said again, that God, as the potter, has the power over the clay of the same lump (Jacob and Esau were twin brothers from the same womb ) to make one unto honour (Jacob) and another unto dishonour (Esau). (Rom. 9:21). It is God's choice. "He doeth that He will-- (Dan. 4:35)". He has compassion and mercy on whom he desires (Rom. 9:15). It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy (Rom. 9:16). The Jews said to Jesus, "how long dost thou make us doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "Ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep (John 10:26)." Jesus said, "My Father gave them to me (John 10:29), and I give my sheep eternal life (John 10:28)." Salvation is not a biological miracle. Jesus does not turn goats into sheep, giving them life. He has owned his sheep from the foundation of the world (II Timothy. 1:9; Eph. 1:4). When sheep are lost on the mountain side or in the valley, they always belong to the shepherd, and he will seek and save everyone that he owns (Luke 19:10). God has planted the hearing ear (Prov. 20:12). When he calls, they will hear and follow (John 10:4). In the last days, men will scoff at the promise of Christ to redeem his people (II Pet. 3:4). The original text gives our answer to the scoffers, refuting them saying, "He is not willing that any of us (his sheep) should perish, but that all of us (that he owned from the beginning) should come to repentance (II Pet. 3:9). He will not allow the roaring lion or the devouring wolf to consume even one of his sheep. No one can pluck them out of his hand (John 10:28,29). He will lose nothing

God Ordains Certain Men to Hell

Isaiah 64:8 -- O Lord, thou art our Father; we are the clay; and thou art the potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

work -- Hebrew: Maaseh- an action (good or bad); product; transaction; business.

Romans 9:20-23 -- Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed It, why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter the power over the clay of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour-- What if God willing to show his wrath, and make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath afore prepared unto glory.

fitted - Greek: katartizo- to complete thoroughly; fit; frame; arrange; prepare

Thayer says this word speaks of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction; their mind is fixed that they frame themselves. Men get angry to think that we serve a God that can do as it pleases him. They actually think that an almighty God thinks the way they think and that he could not possibly form-fit a vessel to hell merely to show his wrath and power. Paul said he does. Men have difficulty perceiving a God that predestinates men (Rom. 8:29 ) on whom he desires to show his grace (unmerited favor) and mercy, that he may shower them throughout eternity with the riches of his glory. We like to believe that we must give him permission, if he is to operate in our hearts and minds. The Lord said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts (Isa. 55:8,9)." Our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased (Psa. 115:3). He doeth whatsoever pleaseth him (Eccl. 8:3). Thou, O Lord hast done as it pleased thee (Jonah 1:14). Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and earth, and in the seas, and in all the deep places (Psa. 135:6). He does all his pleasure (Isa. 46:10; Isa. 44:24-28; Eph. 1:5,9; Phillipians 2:13). It is Jesus that holds the Key to death and hell (Rev. 1:18), not Satan. God will intentionally cast these evil vessels of wrath into hell and lock them up for eternity, because it is not his pleasure to draw them to him (John 6:44). This doctrine angers men, though it is taught throughout the pages of God's Holy Book. Men do not have a biblical view of the living God when thy think he is not in control of all things including the minds and hearts of all men. God is not only love to the vessels of mercy, but he is a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24) upon the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. We do not serve a God who is Superman that can only shake mountains, implode black holes, and explode super novas. The God of the universe can harden and soften the hearts of men at will (Rom. 9:18; Ezek. 36:26). He giveth not account of any of his matters (Job 33:13).

Now my husband thinks my babtist church is wrong because he belives there is no truth in babtist churches, that they are false teachers no matter where I attend.And that I will burn in hell because I know the truth.

And am being lead astray and being lied to.Thanks for all the comments.

[drayden]

Ouch, Drayden!

Baptists aren't perfect, but they're a little better than what you've just described. I'm somewhat confused though. How can your husband say you will go to hell because you know the truth, when his beliefs are that it's not up to you in the first place?

That is where the problem lies he believes we have no choice that we are predestined to Heaven or hell and we have no choices in what we do.Only a man dead in his sin can make a chioce. But that my eyes have been opened and that I know how to define word,and not be decieved. By the way the insert is from his preachers web site. example is john 3;16 does not mean god loved the world ,only his elect. My pastor talk ed to him and invited him to talk when we left church he told me that he was an idiot ,and refused to go back.We have attened ten different churches to date and he finds fault with everyone of them.I just can not abdond my faith!!!

[LadyRaven]

My husband and I agree on all things spiritual. We follow God and His word and we sit under the fine teaching of our shepherds...together. I hardly think my husband would be trying to teach me anything that disagrees with all the provisions given to keep us on the right path.

In fact, there have been many times I have actually taught my husband a thing or two, and believe me, he asks me what I think. There is no violation in that. We are equal partners in the sight of God. Because we are in right standing with God, we are restored to the position of Adam and Eve before the Fall--in Christ. There is no hierarchy there, but rather, we work shoulder to shoulder in service to our King. That is the true status of Christian marriage in this Church age.

We submit to each other according to scripture, and because my husband loves me sacrificially as Jesus Christ does for the Church, I love him and easily submit to his leadership in all areas. Often, he will submit to my wishes out of love, to please and to gift me. I believe that Jesus does that as well, as our loving Father.

Sounds to me like you and your husband have it worked out rather well. I think your description of your marriage is beautiful! I don't know how you justify changing the "hierarchy" of marriage in this "church age." I don't recall that in scripture. Also...being restored to the position of Adam and Eve "before the fall"...is there scripture for that?? I know I've heard that before but I thought that was a Moonies or JW thing? Can't remember.

What we have in the OP is a different topic altogether from what you and your hubby have. We have a woman who disagree's with her husband. She has chosen to follow the spiritual teachings of someone other than her husband. So while you and your husband have cultivated a trust..this woman 'may be' harming her marriage. (I don't want to assume anything since we don't have much info.) She needs to submit to him (even if he's not rightly following the Word) and lift him up in prayer. That is what the bible teaches.

There is nothing wrong with a husband who seeks counsel from his wife...but ultimately it is the husbands decision.

I know what the OP is about. If my husband decided one day to embrace a serious doctrinal error as truth, I would have to come against it. I wouldn't leave my husband, but I would not submit to error by embracing it as he does. I would pray for his eyes to be opened, and make many pleas with him in conversation to see the truth. I would inform his leaders so that they would take him aside. A good church has a built-in safety mechanism for believers who would go astray.

I suppose in that case...the decision would be mine to get correction for him. Good wife. Worth more than rubies.

Proverbs 31:10

Who can find a virtuous and capable wife?

She is more precious than rubies.

I'm always impressed when a husband conducts himself so that his wife has complete trust in his ability to be a servant leader.

We are supposed to submit to our husbands 'as unto the Lord.' I would not follow Christ if I did not trust Him completely and I follow Him because He died for me and because I know He will never lie to me or feed me false doctrine. If I were married I'd have the same expectation of my husband as a type of Christ. I as a type of the church am not to follow Him into error because when this happens the two of us are presenting a lying message about Christ and the Church.

I'm not speaking of a simple disagreement over whether you clap in church but when actual error is being taught. If a wife allows her husband to drift off into heresy unchallenged is in error herself.

[Floatingaxe]

I would inform his leaders so that they would take him aside. A good church has a built-in safety mechanism for believers who would go astray.

I suppose in that case...the decision would be mine to get correction for him. Good wife. Worth more than rubies.

Again...where do you find the scriptural authority to go outside your marriage...presumably to other men...and report your husband as a failed spiritual leader??? Look, if you can find that in scripture then more power to ya...but I don't think its there. I would feel betrayed and offended as a husband if my wife betrayed me like that. I'm sorry but you keep bringing up all these things and you aren't providing any scripture to base it on. The bible is VERY clear that a woman is to remain submissive..even if her husband is wrong. If there is a scriptural caveat to that then please show me, cuz I haven't seen it.

As my husband's sister in Christ, I have every authority to ask my husband's spiritual leader to speak to him. I would not be a good wife if I didn't seek correction for him, and restoration of unity. I am held accountable to God for seeing error and not attempting to right it. My family comes first UNDER God. You seem to harp on the woman's submissiveness. What about the husband's ability to hear the wife and submit to Godly wisdom? There's many a comment I could make on that common problem!

[Floatingaxe]

My husband and I agree on all things spiritual. We follow God and His word and we sit under the fine teaching of our shepherds...together. I hardly think my husband would be trying to teach me anything that disagrees with all the provisions given to keep us on the right path.

In fact, there have been many times I have actually taught my husband a thing or two, and believe me, he asks me what I think. There is no violation in that. We are equal partners in the sight of God. Because we are in right standing with God, we are restored to the position of Adam and Eve before the Fall--in Christ. There is no hierarchy there, but rather, we work shoulder to shoulder in service to our King. That is the true status of Christian marriage in this Church age.

We submit to each other according to scripture, and because my husband loves me sacrificially as Jesus Christ does for the Church, I love him and easily submit to his leadership in all areas. Often, he will submit to my wishes out of love, to please and to gift me. I believe that Jesus does that as well, as our loving Father.

Sounds to me like you and your husband have it worked out rather well. I think your description of your marriage is beautiful! I don't know how you justify changing the "hierarchy" of marriage in this "church age." I don't recall that in scripture. Also...being restored to the position of Adam and Eve "before the fall"...is there scripture for that?? I know I've heard that before but I thought that was a Moonies or JW thing? Can't remember.

What we have in the OP is a different topic altogether from what you and your hubby have. We have a woman who disagree's with her husband. She has chosen to follow the spiritual teachings of someone other than her husband. So while you and your husband have cultivated a trust..this woman 'may be' harming her marriage. (I don't want to assume anything since we don't have much info.) She needs to submit to him (even if he's not rightly following the Word) and lift him up in prayer. That is what the bible teaches.

There is nothing wrong with a husband who seeks counsel from his wife...but ultimately it is the husbands decision.

I know what the OP is about. If my husband decided one day to embrace a serious doctrinal error as truth, I would have to come against it. I wouldn't leave my husband, but I would not submit to error by embracing it as he does. I would pray for his eyes to be opened, and make many pleas with him in conversation to see the truth. I would inform his leaders so that they would take him aside. A good church has a built-in safety mechanism for believers who would go astray.

I suppose in that case...the decision would be mine to get correction for him. Good wife. Worth more than rubies.

Proverbs 31:10

Who can find a virtuous and capable wife?

She is more precious than rubies.

I'm always impressed when a husband conducts himself so that his wife has complete trust in his ability to be a servant leader.

We are supposed to submit to our husbands 'as unto the Lord.' I would not follow Christ if I did not trust Him completely and I follow Him because He died for me and because I know He will never lie to me or feed me false doctrine. If I were married I'd have the same expectation of my husband as a type of Christ. I as a type of the church am not to follow Him into error because when this happens the two of us are presenting a lying message about Christ and the Church.

I'm not speaking of a simple disagreement over whether you clap in church but when actual error is being taught. If a wife allows her husband to drift off into heresy unchallenged is in error herself.

Thank you. You see what I am trying to convey!

[LadyRaven]

Drayden,

I do not know for sure if your husband is believing heresy or not, but your OP sounded like it. Calvinism/predestination are not heresy. However some people of our persuasion have taken predestination to an extreme to where it becomes heretical. Hypercalvinism is actually a misnomer as the hypercalvinist places the irresistability of grace in a position where it's importance is exaggerated so as to completely overshadow the rest of scripture. It is a denial of a sincere offer of the gospel to any who would repent, and some go so far as to insist that the gospel should only be preached to the elect (how one determines this is beyond me even if it were correct doctrine). True historical Calvinism does believe that the gospel should be preached to all and that it is a sincere offer to any who would accept it.

A Calvinist believes that without God's intervention man wont chose the gospel. However, any choice he makes against the gospel is voluntary and wanted based on his preferences. The resulting condemnation is also just because he honestly did not want to accept the gospel. Man's inability to choose is not something he rails against, it's not something done over and above his desires. It is his honest, earnest, completely voluntary desire to reject the gospel.

When the Holy Spirit enlightens a man, it is his honest, earnest, completely voluntary desire to accept the gospel. He wont choose anything else because his nature changed to where it makes no sense to him to do otherwise. There is no possibility of man being drug kicking and screaming into heaven or hell, man does what he wants and goes where he has chosen. God changes the 'want to' in a person by changing his nature, opening his ears, circumcising his heart not by changing man's mind for him.

Hypercalvinism takes this too far, to the point that the rejection or acceptance of the gospel is not voluntary at all. Man does not chose. It's not that he chooses that which pleases him, he makes no choice at all. God not only chooses the elect, but saves them without their consent. A Hypercalvinist

1. Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR

2. Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR

3. Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR

4. Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR

5. Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

Based on what you have presented, and the way you have worded things, it is my impression that either you do not understand your husband's beliefs well enough to explain them accurately to us or he has drifted off into hypercalvinism. The difference might seem slight to someone coming from a freewill pov, however, it is there. Before I can counsel you how to respond to his doctrine and his insistence that you follow it, I would have to know which is actually happening. Calvinism isn't everyone's bag, but it isn't heresy. Hypercalvinism is heresy.

Actually I can tell you one thing to do. I would do a complete study, a comparison study if you will, of Calvinism and Arminianism on your own. Ask your husband for materials that you understand that you can study, I'm sure he'd be glad to provide them. Then get your own and study the scriptures using both. If he gets his knickers in a twist, explain to him that you dont understand and and you want to study until you do understand. You wish to understand and agree but cant right now. etc. Once you understand true Calvinism, whether you agree with it or not, and know whether or not he is a heretic, then you have a clear path, I believe.

End the end, if he's a standard Calvinist, I have to agree with Axx, the scriptures are clear, it is the husband's job to lead. But submission does not mean that you agree with everything, it means that you allow him to lead in spite of that. You are not a robot and not expected to just nod your head and follow along like a zombie. You can ask questions, you can disagree. However, once the rubber hits the road, and you have children, it is HIS responsibility to see to their spiritual upbringing and yours to support him.

If your husband has drifted off into heresy however, you do not have to follow. You can pray for him, you can stay with him, you can continue to dialogue, but you are not to follow him into heresy.

Oh, and you said that you were a Baptist... Have you ever heard of a group of Baptists called "the Founders"? They strictly hold to the London Baptist Confession. You might want to look them up.

[Axxman]

Axx, I'd like to know what Scripture says a wife is supposed to follow her husband when her husband is going against truth? You said

The bible is VERY clear that a woman is to remain submissive..even if her husband is wrong.

I'm not familiar with where this is. Please share.

"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;" I Peter 3:1

The bible also tells women not to divorce their unbelieving husbands for the same reason. "The unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife."

[Axxman]

This is why it is so important to spend time discussing these issues before marraige.

There is about a ton of truth in that statement.

The relationship between the husband and the wife is a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church. Christ loved us first, gave Himself up for us, and drew us to Him, and we are to submit to Him. Husbands, if you don't follow this example, chances are you will not have the same result.

Do you ever disagree with Christ? Do you ever question Christ? If you are ever in doubt do you turn to anyone but Christ? Then why should women be able to treat their husbands any other way but total devotion, and unwavering support. The illustration between Christ and the church is right on...but often women forget that it works both ways. Husbands are to love their wives with as much passion and dedication as Christ did for the church. On the other hand, women should submit wholly and without doubt, fear, and reservation to their husbands...just as the church does to Christ.

The whole Christ/church example goes both ways. If wives don't submit wholeheartedly, without doubt or reservation, to their husbands...chances are they won't have the same results either.

[givennewname]

I would inform his leaders so that they would take him aside. A good church has a built-in safety mechanism for believers who would go astray.

I suppose in that case...the decision would be mine to get correction for him. Good wife. Worth more than rubies.

Again...where do you find the scriptural authority to go outside your marriage...presumably to other men...and report your husband as a failed spiritual leader??? Look, if you can find that in scripture then more power to ya...but I don't think its there. I would feel betrayed and offended as a husband if my wife betrayed me like that. I'm sorry but you keep bringing up all these things and you aren't providing any scripture to base it on. The bible is VERY clear that a woman is to remain submissive..even if her husband is wrong. If there is a scriptural caveat to that then please show me, cuz I haven't seen it.

As my husband's sister in Christ, I have every authority to ask my husband's spiritual leader to speak to him. I would not be a good wife if I didn't seek correction for him, and restoration of unity. I am held accountable to God for seeing error and not attempting to right it. My family comes first UNDER God. You seem to harp on the woman's submissiveness. What about the husband's ability to hear the wife and submit to Godly wisdom? There's many a comment I could make on that common problem!

Wouldn't bringing the problem to God in prayer be a more solution to the problem? iF your husband is a christian, then Christ is his head, and if God can shut the lion's mouth, won't he be able to do more to yr husband if he is in error?

1Pe 3:6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose children ye now are, if ye do well, and are not put in fear by any terror.

1Pe 3:7 Ye husbands, in like manner, dwell with your wives according to knowledge, giving honor unto the woman, as unto the weaker vessel, as being also joint-heirs of the grace of life; to the end that your prayers be not hindered.

[Axxman]

As my husband's sister in Christ, I have every authority to ask my husband's spiritual leader to speak to him. I would not be a good wife if I didn't seek correction for him, and restoration of unity. I am held accountable to God for seeing error and not attempting to right it. My family comes first UNDER God. You seem to harp on the woman's submissiveness. What about the husband's ability to hear the wife and submit to Godly wisdom? There's many a comment I could make on that common problem!

Husbands are certainly supposed to hear the wise counsel of their wives. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a husband who knows and respects the wisdom of his wife. Having a wife who knows and understands the things of God is a tremendous blessing and a man would be a fool to not listen and consider the words of his wife. However, it is still the man's job to lead his wife. The biggest problem here is that you are not providing and scripture to back up your claims here. What authority do you have to speak to another man about your spiritual problems with your husband? The quickest way to restore unity in the marriage is to submit to your husbands spiritual authority...even if you think he is wrong.

You say you want husbands to listen to their wives more..well the quickest way to undermine that is to start disrespecting his God given authority as the Head of the house. The scriptures can't be more clear on this point...I'll post it again...

Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;" I Peter 3:1

If your hubby isn't in the word...submit to him so they may be won by the conversation of the wives. A husband is more likely to listen to a wife who is fulfilling her Godly role.

It is NOT my intent to place all the blame on women...their are plenty that men could do to be better spiritual leaders. I'm sure there are many comments you could make in that regard. However, with the OP in mind (and I'm glad she came back to clarify a bit) she simply has no scriptural authority to go against her husband in this case. If you have any scriptures that say a women doesn't have to submit to a husband who she disagree's with...I'll be glad to read them.