Why do we need the local church?

[Guest yod]

You do not have to study every view of every belief to come to the conclusion I have come to, nor do you have to think that you are the only one correct as some have accuse me of. You just have to realize that if one view is correct the opposing must be false.

You be Zeke and I'll be Zach, ok?

Zeke! I love your zeal! But there are many more views than this or that on ALL of these matters!!

And that is the point of mercy and grace. The Lord has mercy on those who trust Him and keep His commands. Why make it any harder than that? He convicts us through the Spirit of Holiness (aka Holy Spirit) towards surrendering our heart to him.

Our brain will follow once we have washed it in the Word quite a bit.....but Yeshua desires heart-to-heart fellowship with us. Not a theological debate or a vocabulary test, ok? He didn't teach the disciples with charts and graphs in little boring classrooms. They learned by watching how He handled everyday life situations faithfully and that is what the Lord requires of us. Live faithfully in trusting that His ways are better than ours! Just do what He tells you is right and you won't have to worry about doing anything wrong, ok? If you are faithful in small things, he will continually give you greater things to be faithful in. It's simple.

I like a good theological debate once in a while but for you I respectfully suggest that you drop the the theological hoops for a while and go play in the park with Abba. Just spend time with Him in prayer and reading the Word. He loves that! And don't worry too much about this/that "doctrine" of theological debate for a while. The answers will come as you get to know Him better.

You'll eventually be at a cross without much trying. That is where you learn to be like Him. All this other stuff is academic if you can't do it there....

[Guest yod]

I was just reading Colossians where I saw this verse:

Col. 3:5 - Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

I find it interesting that in the New Testament, there isn't a mention of an idolotry problem with graven images and pictures. However, there is mention of idolatry with attitudes and action.

I'm just glad the Dallas Cowboys aren't on that list

Yes, of course, idolotry is putting anything before the Lord and dang if that ain't inconvenient sometimes on Sundays!?!

"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch" are elements of the Law; but these are a shadow, for they cannot restrain sensual indulgences (yes, that's in Colossians, also, ch. 2).

Do not watch the Cowboys, nor listen by earphone during the service...

We need to look past the dos and don'ts and ask ourselves why they are dos and don'ts.

You mean like why don't we just put the game up on the big screen and listen to the preacher during half-time?

Why is it a sin to steal, for instance? Because, it is an act of selfishness. It violates love for the other person.

OK...back to serious. If we aren't seeking to bless others then we are disobeying Him.

So, why are graven images forbidden in the Old Testament time and time again, but not dwelt upon in the New Testament? Because back in the Old Testament times the only reason people made statues and drew pictures was for religious reasons. By the time of the Roman Empire, people were enjoying "art for art's sake," and pictures and statues in and of themselves were no longer regarded as religious items to the people. (Unless the item was made for religious purposes; but not all items were.)

I just had a weird thought...nevermind.

[Guest man]

And when I stand before Him, believe me, the pictures of Him on the wall will be the farthest thing from both of our minds!

Do you believe that is a true depiction of what He actually looks like?

Yes.

That right there is why this issue needs to be discussed.

Of course, none of you see that, so what's the point?

You all have a good one.

[Floatingaxe]

And when I stand before Him, believe me, the pictures of Him on the wall will be the farthest thing from both of our minds!

Do you believe that is a true depiction of what He actually looks like?

Yes.

That right there is why this issue needs to be discussed.

Of course, none of you see that, so what's the point?

You all have a good one.

Look, man, we know no one knows what Jesus looked like. But God does give artists inspiration to depict Christ. Further, no one bows in worship to an icon--except Catholics. We are not discussing Catholic issues here.

Now let's get back on topic, please.

[Xan]

And when I stand before Him, believe me, the pictures of Him on the wall will be the farthest thing from both of our minds!

Do you believe that is a true depiction of what He actually looks like?

Yes.

That right there is why this issue needs to be discussed.

Of course, none of you see that, so what's the point?

You all have a good one.

Look, man, we know no one knows what Jesus looked like. But God does give artists inspiration to depict Christ. Further, no one bows in worship to an icon--except Catholics. We are not discussing Catholic issues here.

Now let's get back on topic, please.

That's the cruxt of the issue right there; whether or not we use any image (including the image of Christ) in worship. If we do, it's idolatry. If we don't, it's not.

[LadyRaven]

but you are missing the point that on issues like the trinity the vast, vast majority of churches teach this, so if there is an opposing view it is very much in the minority and is taught in few churches. So half the churches are not teaching something that is wrong.

the poster is still using the premise that false just means 'not correct' or 'not right' and not meaning that there is serious, salvation prohibiting error. The not believing the trinity is heresy (modalism and oneness are heresies) and that is grave error. having one of the many views of the end times is not. But if you believe one of the partial preterist positions (a -r post millenial), all pre trib and most post trib people are still 'wrong' to you. It's not something you divide personal fellowship over, but it might prevent one from attending a given local church if the church is all about the pre-trib end times all the time and one is a-millenial. One would either look for an a-millenial church, or one that just didn't teach about the end times much at all.

And as to your last comment, most likely all churches are teaching at least one thing wrong (except mine of course ). To me, that doesn't mean you should give up the search or avoid affiliation with a local body of some sort, it just means you find the best one, the one you believe has the least error and attend there. Or the one where there might be more things you think are wrong but those things are least important. (Eucharist doctrines dont bug me as much as Dispensationalism does)

[LadyRaven]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

this is just what I was saying, to go around saying that a church is teaching false doctrine because you dont agree on eschatological items or on how to baptize or so forth is just hurting the cause of Christianity.

I suppose it depends upon how it is done. If you say it in such a way that it leads people to believe you are speaking of heresy, then I'll concede your point. If it's obvious we're talking about a simple disagreement over something smaller, I'm not sure I do.

The unbelievers are quite aware of the fact that we disagree with each other on a good variety of issues. It's obvious. All they have to do is drive around some.

So when you are asked why you dont attend Park Baptist, stating that you believe their doctrine about worship is false and they believe that your doctrine about worship is false makes a good deal of sense. It sounds like there is a good reason, a legitimate disagreement. If you say you dont like their music, it makes Christianity look trivial.

I tend not to use it, I just tend to say "I dont believe in dispensationalism." or whatever. But if the terminology is used wisely, there is nothing wrong with saying that you believe dispensationalism is false.

I realise that it can be shocking to some sensibilities, which is why I always put the 'i believe' in front if I use it at all. But honestly, it's something new in the culture nowadays that one would have to pad one's opinion this way. Read doctrinal material written in the 1800's and early 1900s ... That terminology is all over it, for stuff we just disagree on, like baptism. I dont think that the older theologians were offensive and brash, I believe that modern man is too easily offended and wimpy.

[Guest man]

And when I stand before Him, believe me, the pictures of Him on the wall will be the farthest thing from both of our minds!

Do you believe that is a true depiction of what He actually looks like?

Yes.

That right there is why this issue needs to be discussed.

Of course, none of you see that, so what's the point?

You all have a good one.

You can't use the "false image" argument. What now?

2 Corinthians 4

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

John 6

46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Colossians 1

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Hebrews 1

3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

1 Timothy 1

17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Do you see anything in those verses?

If that thing you have hanging on your wall was indeed the true image of Christ, the canvas would be blank.

2 Corinthians 11

14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Galatians 5

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,

20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,

21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

24 And those who are Christ

[Guest man]

Matthew 12

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

[Guest man]

1 John 3

2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.