When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

[Celt]

What I described in my previous post was NOT events of Rev.20, for that Revelation chapter is for AFTER Christ's return, and after His thousand years reign. Paul links the timing of Christ's coming as a thief in the night to that event when they shall say, "Peace and safety" in 1 Thess.5. He's talking about a false time of "Peace and safety", which is to occur just prior to Christ's second coming! So trying to say that the thousand years is now over, without Christ's second coming and reign here on earth de facto, is totally going away from what the Scripture states. Such an idea like that is clearly a doctrine of men, a Preterist doctrine.

The Ezekiel 38 and 39 chapters are also to occur during this world age, just prior to Christ's second coming, and is linked to the events of the battle of Armageddon. Gog and Magog is mentioned again in Rev.20 AFTER Christ's future thousand years reign, because it will be a final attempt by Satan to lead the wicked up against the holy city after the thousand years. That thousand years reign by Christ is still future to us today, for Christ's second coming has not happened yet. Nor has the resurrection events the apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

[Massorite]

Masonite, good to see others have read Josephus on the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

I agree Shiloh, good to stay focused. Because of the type of events prophesied in Revelation, Matthew 24 and Mark 13, and 2 Thessalonians 2, I put the tribulation starting when false messiah appears and starts requiring the whole world to bow to him in place of GOD, and many brethren are delivered up to councils and synagogues because of refusing.

Nebula, as for the tribulation starting with Christ opening the first seal, I don't believe that, because the 7 seals impart information and are not in order as to the events, except for the last three maybe. I believe that very first seal is about a false one coming on a white horse to mimic the way our Lord Jesus comes in Rev.19. That event doesn't happen until toward the end, like on the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe.

My conclusion also Celt. An in depth study of the verse 2 in Revelation 6 tells us that the man on the white horse will have a bow but the verse says nothing about arrows and A bow is useless without arrows unless you are going to run a bluff. Its like having a gun without bullets. The crown is given to him which shows that he is not royalty and that didn't have it in the first place like Jesus is. For the antichrist the white horse will be the symbol of peace. But for Jesus the white horse represents victory.

The words "conquering and to conquer" are not talking about a war or battles where men fight against each other. In the Greek those words mean "overcoming and to overcome" which is exactly what the antichrist does when he comes. He will conqure/overcome the secular pagan world not by war but by flatteries, miracles, doing wonders in the heavens, and dieing and coming back to life just as it was prophesied about Jesus. The antichrist will be the great copycat. He will mimic what Jesus did and claim to be Jesus/God.

Argh...

The man on the White Horse is NOT antichrist. It's Jesus...meek and lowly Jesus. He comes to overcome sin and death (which He did). The white horse IS victory, which Jesus achieved. Why does everyone try to put some mythical character into Christ's place? Jesus said that he came not to bring peace, but a sword. The bow with no arrows refers to the fact that Christ needed no earthly weapon to accomplish His task.

All of the OTHER horses come after Christ and are punishments on those who REJECT him.

This 'antichrist-dictator' is whole cloth. He does not exist. Antichrist is a spirit which claims Christ was not human, but only a Christ-spirit. John never mentions antichrist outside of his letters. Antichrist has no bearing on Revelation whatsoever, antichrist was behind the Gnostic heresy. It's easy to confuse the description of Nero in Rev 13 with modern teachings of a dictator antichrist, but it isn't so.

Man you are very much decieved into thinking that the antichrist is everything that he is not.

[Massorite]

The thing the Church is missing is that the whole siege of Jerusalem WAS the tribulation to which Jesus referred. By trying to extrapolate the events of that time into the future, we open ourselves to all sorts of confusion. The same thing with the so-called antichrist. Antichrist is not a who: It's a WHAT. See 1st John. He defines antichrist very well. It's not a man, it's a spirit, a demonic entity which filled the Gnostic's who claimed that Jesus was not a man. It has nothing to do with eschatology whatsoever, but Christology.

God operates in history. He doesn't leave 'gaps' in time. He sometimes has His prophets and apostles use allegories/metaphors to describe things that will or have happened. That doesn't make Scripture any less powerful.

You are wrong. God does not operate in history. History is where God has already operated and will not be operating there again because it is in the past. God doesn't even operate in the future. God only operates in the now. You are talking three dimensional time here which does not exist. Where have you been getting this stuff? Who has been teaching you these utterly fantastically false doctrines?

You should study Ezekiel 28:1-19. Most everybody knows that the antichrist will be satan incarnate. IE satan in the flesh. Just like Jesus was God incarnate. IE God in the flesh. In verse 9 the word of God says the satan will be a man in the hand of him that slays him.

Spirits cannot sign covenants, do wonders/miracles, show themselves to be God, sit in the temple of God or do any other carnal or physical functions. So are you calling the bible wrong when it says that the antichrist will be doing these things in the future?

The bible says that the antichrist will be very powerful so if the antichrist fill all of the Gnostics then why are there not more Gnostic's in the world? Why have they not taken hold of more power? In fact where are the Gnostic's now and how much influence do they have on the world as we are speaking?

Can you show us exactly where in the bible that it says that the antichrist will be a spirit and not a human? Or just a spirit? Or not a man?

Where in the book of 1st John does it talk about the antichrist being a spirit and not a man because I can't find the word antichrist written anywhere in the book of 1st John.

[Bold Believer]

What I described in my previous post was NOT events of Rev.20, for that Revelation chapter is for AFTER Christ's return, and after His thousand years reign. Paul links the timing of Christ's coming as a thief in the night to that event when they shall say, "Peace and safety" in 1 Thess.5. He's talking about a false time of "Peace and safety", which is to occur just prior to Christ's second coming! So trying to say that the thousand years is now over, without Christ's second coming and reign here on earth de facto, is totally going away from what the Scripture states. Such an idea like that is clearly a doctrine of men, a Preterist doctrine.

The Ezekiel 38 and 39 chapters are also to occur during this world age, just prior to Christ's second coming, and is linked to the events of the battle of Armageddon. Gog and Magog is mentioned again in Rev.20 AFTER Christ's future thousand years reign, because it will be a final attempt by Satan to lead the wicked up against the holy city after the thousand years. That thousand years reign by Christ is still future to us today, for Christ's second coming has not happened yet. Nor has the resurrection events the apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Corinthians 15.

1. Partial Preterism is not a doctrine of men. It IS misunderstood, though, mostly thanks to Full Preterism

2. Your statement depends upon how you understand the 1000 years. I understand it differently than you, hence we have the difference of opinion.

Christ does reign on earth de facto. While He is in heaven at the right hand of God, He also reigns over the earth. Gog and Magog are a worldwide rebellion. We're experiencing that NOW. Where do you think this whole idea of man being god comes from? It was the first lie, it will be the last. Man is certainly being led down the path to belief in his own supposed godhood. That is pretty obvious.

You may however believe whatever you like.

Regarding Paul's thief in the night statement, he was not the ONLY apostle to use that analogy:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Now compare Peter's rendering of the Second Coming to Rev 20:9. It's the VERY SAME EVENT BEING SPOKEN OF. There are NO heathen survivors at the Second Coming. They are brought back to life, judged, and cast into Gehenna.

[Bold Believer]

The thing the Church is missing is that the whole siege of Jerusalem WAS the tribulation to which Jesus referred. By trying to extrapolate the events of that time into the future, we open ourselves to all sorts of confusion. The same thing with the so-called antichrist. Antichrist is not a who: It's a WHAT. See 1st John. He defines antichrist very well. It's not a man, it's a spirit, a demonic entity which filled the Gnostic's who claimed that Jesus was not a man. It has nothing to do with eschatology whatsoever, but Christology.

God operates in history. He doesn't leave 'gaps' in time. He sometimes has His prophets and apostles use allegories/metaphors to describe things that will or have happened. That doesn't make Scripture any less powerful.

You are wrong. God does not operate in history. History is where God has already operated and will not be operating there again because it is in the past. God doesn't even operate in the future. God only operates in the now. You are talking three dimensional time here which does not exist. Where have you been getting this stuff? Who has been teaching you these utterly fantastically false doctrines?

You should study Ezekiel 28:1-19. Most everybody knows that the antichrist will be satan incarnate. IE satan in the flesh. Just like Jesus was God incarnate. IE God in the flesh. In verse 9 the word of God says the satan will be a man in the hand of him that slays him.

Spirits cannot sign covenants, do wonders/miracles, show themselves to be God, sit in the temple of God or do any other carnal or physical functions. So are you calling the bible wrong when it says that the antichrist will be doing these things in the future?

The bible says that the antichrist will be very powerful so if the antichrist fill all of the Gnostics then why are there not more Gnostic's in the world? Why have they not taken hold of more power? In fact where are the Gnostic's now and how much influence do they have on the world as we are speaking?

Can you show us exactly where in the bible that it says that the antichrist will be a spirit and not a human? Or just a spirit? Or not a man?

Where in the book of 1st John does it talk about the antichrist being a spirit and not a man because I can't find the word antichrist written anywhere in the book of 1st John.

Let me take each question:

1. The true teaching of Christ defeated Gnosticism. There are a few odd Gnostics left, but they have no power.

2. God operates in and THROUGH history. He controls all things to his glory.

3. The Bible does not say that the antichrist will do these things. People take those verses out of context. Scripture never states that antichrist will sign anything. If you're trying to insert Daniel 9:27 here, it won't work. The word gabar does not mean sign, it means give strength to or confirm. Christ confirmed the New Covenant (Jer 31:33) at the last seder with his disciples. "This is the New Covenant in my blood."

4. Antichrist WAS/IS a spirit.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (They had heard antichrist was coming)

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (The second 'spirit' is not in the Greek language, it is added in English to allow us understand that the writer is still referring to spirits.)

John is clearly referring back to the earlier portion of the letter when he tells the Believers that they had heard that IT (not he) would come. The spirit of antichrist indwelled many people in that day.

Spirits can do many things through the people they inhabit. The spirit of antichrist caused people to confess false doctrine concerning Jesus. They Gnostics were saying that 'the Christ' was a spirit, but Jesus was a man and not God.

[Bold Believer]

Can you show us exactly where in the bible that it says that the antichrist will be a spirit and not a human? Or just a spirit? Or not a man?

Where in the book of 1st John does it talk about the antichrist being a spirit and not a man because I can't find the word antichrist written anywhere in the book of 1st John.

I John 2:18, 22

I John 4:3

II John 1:7

In fact, you will find that these verses are the ONLY use of the term in the entire Bible. Singular 4 times, plural once. It is nowhere else in Scripture.

[Celt]

1. Partial Preterism is not a doctrine of men. It IS misunderstood, though, mostly thanks to Full Preterism

2. Your statement depends upon how you understand the 1000 years. I understand it differently than you, hence we have the difference of opinion.

Christ does reign on earth de facto. While He is in heaven at the right hand of God, He also reigns over the earth. Gog and Magog are a worldwide rebellion. We're experiencing that NOW. Where do you think this whole idea of man being god comes from? It was the first lie, it will be the last. Man is certainly being led down the path to belief in his own supposed godhood. That is pretty obvious.

You may however believe whatever you like.

Regarding Paul's thief in the night statement, he was not the ONLY apostle to use that analogy:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Now compare Peter's rendering of the Second Coming to Rev 20:9. It's the VERY SAME EVENT BEING SPOKEN OF. There are NO heathen survivors at the Second Coming. They are brought back to life, judged, and cast into Gehenna.

The problem with Preterism brother, even so-called 'Partial Preterism', is that it gets a lot of the Revelation events out of order. The following scripture is for AFTER Christ's second coming, which shows the second coming has not yet happenned today...

Rev 20:4-8

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The timing for that beast and that mark is for the very end of this world age.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

(KJV)

Where does that say those will reign from with Christ? Christ told us that already, back in the Rev.5 chapter...

Rev 5:10

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(KJV)

Rev.20:9 also shows the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" is already on the earth when Satan is loosed one more time to bring the nations up against it.

For Preterism to be true, then that thousand years reign with Christ Jesus here on earth, in Person, along with His saints ruling on earth with Him as priests and kings, would have to either be past, or in effect right now. Clearly it is not happenning right now, nor at any time in the past. It's because that is still a future event.

So this is not a matter of simply what one chooses to believe; it's about either staying in God's Word as written, or following the doctrines of men, the leaven teachings of men which our Lord Jesus warned His Apostles and us about.

As for the idea of "antichrist", it represents both a particular entity, his workers, and the spirit of their kind of working. In 1 John 2:18, the word is rendered once in the singular and once in the plural. It is a word John used to describe both an entity, and a working. The Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 did a similar thing with the "mystery of iniquity" idea, which is about a certain people, and a certain type of working they do. In the Old Testament we were told about the "workers of iniquity", and that's where Paul was pulling from. That's why he said it was already at work, and that's why John said the working of antichrist was already in the world. But in essence, it is about a singular entity who is the father of it all, which points to the devil himself.

[Massorite]

Can you show us exactly where in the bible that it says that the antichrist will be a spirit and not a human? Or just a spirit? Or not a man?

Where in the book of 1st John does it talk about the antichrist being a spirit and not a man because I can't find the word antichrist written anywhere in the book of 1st John.

I John 2:18, 22

I John 4:3

II John 1:7

In fact, you will find that these verses are the ONLY use of the term in the entire Bible. Singular 4 times, plural once. It is nowhere else in Scripture.

I believe that there are many antichrists just like the scripture says. Anybody can be an anti-Christ as in against Christ and there is such a spirit as an anti-Christ spirit. But that does not mean or prove that all scriptures that talk about the antichrist (as in one) are talking about a spirit only and just as you have pointed out the bible in 1 John 2:22 say that any one who denies Christ is antichrist. Which means that a person can be antichrist without the spirit of antichrist just like I am antiobama. That doesn't mean that I have an anti Obama spirit, it simply means that I disagree with him on all counts.

1 John 4:3 is talking about a spirit of antichrist and this verse is talking about something spiritual and not simply a disagreement.

In 2 John 1:7 the bible is again talking about some one who is antichrist because what? Because this person is just as the word of God says, an antichrist who wants to deceive. The Rev Moon is an antichrist, Jim Jones was an antichrist, there is a pastor in south America with the numbers 666 tattooed across his forehead who is an antichrist. What do all of these three people have in common? They all claim to be the Christ sent forth into the world by God to save the world.

And that is exactly what the antichrist in the books of Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation is going to do in the future. But he will be different, he will be able to do wonders for the people of the world to see and believe in him for it. He will claim to be the Christ sent forth by God to save the world just as Christ has already done. Though these other places in the bible do not use the word "antichrist" to describe the man of sin (2 Thess 2:3) doesn't mean that all of these verses are not talking about the same person who will come in the future who will be the antichrist of all antichrists. IE SATAN INCARNATE.

All of these verses you have quoted do not prove that there is an antichrist spirit alone. But they have proved that a man can be an antiChrist with an antichrist spirit within him. Which proves that according to prophetic scripture that there will be a man who is an antichrist who will deceive most of the world by reason of his manipulative talk and power in the future.

[Massorite]

The thing the Church is missing is that the whole siege of Jerusalem WAS the tribulation to which Jesus referred. By trying to extrapolate the events of that time into the future, we open ourselves to all sorts of confusion. The same thing with the so-called antichrist. Antichrist is not a who: It's a WHAT. See 1st John. He defines antichrist very well. It's not a man, it's a spirit, a demonic entity which filled the Gnostic's who claimed that Jesus was not a man. It has nothing to do with eschatology whatsoever, but Christology.

God operates in history. He doesn't leave 'gaps' in time. He sometimes has His prophets and apostles use allegories/metaphors to describe things that will or have happened. That doesn't make Scripture any less powerful.

You are wrong. God does not operate in history. History is where God has already operated and will not be operating there again because it is in the past. God doesn't even operate in the future. God only operates in the now. You are talking three dimensional time here which does not exist. Where have you been getting this stuff? Who has been teaching you these utterly fantastically false doctrines?

You should study Ezekiel 28:1-19. Most everybody knows that the antichrist will be satan incarnate. IE satan in the flesh. Just like Jesus was God incarnate. IE God in the flesh. In verse 9 the word of God says the satan will be a man in the hand of him that slays him.

Spirits cannot sign covenants, do wonders/miracles, show themselves to be God, sit in the temple of God or do any other carnal or physical functions. So are you calling the bible wrong when it says that the antichrist will be doing these things in the future?

The bible says that the antichrist will be very powerful so if the antichrist fill all of the Gnostics then why are there not more Gnostic's in the world? Why have they not taken hold of more power? In fact where are the Gnostic's now and how much influence do they have on the world as we are speaking?

Can you show us exactly where in the bible that it says that the antichrist will be a spirit and not a human? Or just a spirit? Or not a man?

Where in the book of 1st John does it talk about the antichrist being a spirit and not a man because I can't find the word antichrist written anywhere in the book of 1st John.

Let me take each question:

1. The true teaching of Christ defeated Gnosticism. There are a few odd Gnostics left, but they have no power.

2. God operates in and THROUGH history. He controls all things to his glory.

3. The Bible does not say that the antichrist will do these things. People take those verses out of context. Scripture never states that antichrist will sign anything. If you're trying to insert Daniel 9:27 here, it won't work. The word gabar does not mean sign, it means give strength to or confirm. Christ confirmed the New Covenant (Jer 31:33) at the last seder with his disciples. "This is the New Covenant in my blood."

4. Antichrist WAS/IS a spirit.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (They had heard antichrist was coming)

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (The second 'spirit' is not in the Greek language, it is added in English to allow us understand that the writer is still referring to spirits.)

John is clearly referring back to the earlier portion of the letter when he tells the Believers that they had heard that IT (not he) would come. The spirit of antichrist indwelled many people in that day.

Spirits can do many things through the people they inhabit. The spirit of antichrist caused people to confess false doctrine concerning Jesus. They Gnostics were saying that 'the Christ' was a spirit, but Jesus was a man and not God.

So your saying that the "man of sin" is not the antichrist, or that in Dan 11:36 the king who shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every God is not the antichrist, or that the son of perdition is not the antichrist. Right? Then who are they if they are not the antichrist? All of my research tools tell me that they are all the same person. Which is the end time antichrist who will make a covenant with Isreal for seven years but will back out of his deal after 3 1/2 years. I don't believe for a minute that my research tools are distorting the word of God but I do believe you are. Or at the least your teacher has.

Wrong again. John 14:9-10 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you and yet have you not known ME Philip? he that has seen Me has seen the father; and how sayest you Show us the Father? Believe you not that Iam in the Father and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I speak not of Myself but the Father that dwells in Me. He does the works.

By the very words of Jesus He was God in the flesh.

[nebula]

I'm going to revert back to my original question on this, but with a twist.

Why are people insisting that the Great Tribulation begins with the Anti-Christ?

You see, when I read the book of Revelation, I see the Tribulation of the End of the End of Days to be a product of and guided by the Lord's hand.

Yet, in discussing the Trib, I see everyone focused on the Evil One and not on the Lord.

Why is that?