END times questions

[kross]

I like this topic but my head is spinning from all of the recent conversation.

I would like to know the scriptures that teach that the dead in CHRIST are the ones that make of the army from Heaven at the end of the tribulation.

I would also like to see some of the scriptures that teach that all of the wicked will be destroyed at the end of the tribulation.

Thanks

K. Ross

[Floatingaxe]

I like this topic but my head is spinning from all of the recent conversation.

I would like to know the scriptures that teach that the dead in CHRIST are the ones that make of the army from Heaven at the end of the tribulation.

I would also like to see some of the scriptures that teach that all of the wicked will be destroyed at the end of the tribulation.

Thanks

K. Ross

I did answer this same question you posted elsewhere.

[followerofjesus]

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The generation will certainly not pass away? Can U explain this?

[sweetycakes]

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The generation will certainly not pass away? Can U explain this?

"When you see all these things"

"This generation shall not pass away...."

[kross]

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The generation will certainly not pass away? Can U explain this?

"When you see all these things"

"This generation shall not pass away...."

It can mean that when all the signs have ben seen, a generation will not pass before the end comes.

It may also refer to the time of MAN. That the time of men in unglorified bodies living on the earth will not pass away.

Heaven and earth will be removed with a great fire and a new earth wil be put in it's place. "this generation" can refer to this part of the timeline for GOD's creation.

[John3;16]

[kross]

I like this topic but my head is spinning from all of the recent conversation.

I would like to know the scriptures that teach that the dead in CHRIST are the ones that make of the army from Heaven at the end of the tribulation.

I would also like to see some of the scriptures that teach that all of the wicked will be destroyed at the end of the tribulation.

Thanks

K. Ross

Hey kross I am going to give you scriptures to support affirmative to both your questions. I will give scripture for the Army returning from heaven are the dead in Christ first. However we would need to be on the same page about another issue b4 I can continue. Some people believe when you die your soul sleeps until the

resurrection others believe that when you die your soul goes to heaven. I will continue under the assumption you are the latter and you believe as I do that when you die your soul goes to heaven.

To start in Jude it says that the Lord is coming with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all the ungodly

Jude 14-15

14 And Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied of these (the ungodly), saying behold, the Lord cometh with ten thounsands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment on all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them all of their ungodly deed which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinner have spoken against him.

So from the start we now know when Jesus comes it will be with his saints. Pretribbers say that Jesus is returning with the raptured saint, but in 1st thess 3:13 it says Jesus returns with all His saints. That would include the dead saints from heaven and the living saints from earth.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

So now we know Jesus in not returning with just His ''raptured saints'' because if the rapture was pretrib and Jesus ret4urned with the raptured saints only then that would not include the tribulational converts as pretribbers also believe that there will be converts during the trib after the rapture. So if Jesus return would not include the tribulation converts He would not be returning with all His saint. However if Jesus returns to earth with the dead from heaven and cathes the living up to meet them in the air as He is descended to earth then He would return with all His saints just as 1st thess 3:13 says and this is exactly how it is described in 1st thess 4:13-18

1st Thess 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you be ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not as other who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep is Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

You see here clearly that the dead are coming with Jesus from heaven and the living are caught up to meet them in the air. We see this taking place in Mark as well when referiing to the 2nd coming of Christ it say Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and from earth the dead from heaven to return with Him and the living from earth to meet them in the air just as described in 1st thess 4 :13-17

Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So this is some scriptural evidence that those returning with Christ in Revelation 19"14 are those that have died in Christ through out the ages and not the raptured saints. There might be some angels mixed in as well but there is no scripture that says that but there is scripture that clearly states the dead saint are returning with Christ from Heaven Jude 14-15, 1st Thess 3:13, 1st thess 4:13-17, and Mark 13:24-27

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

More proof that these are the dead in Christ and not raptured saint or angels is in Revelation 6:9-11

Revelation 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the alter the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying how long O Lord, holy and true do you not avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given them; and it was sain unto them that they should rest for a little season, until their fellowservants also and there brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

you see here white robes were given to those martyred during the tribulation the dead in Christ are those clothed in white clothes returning with Christ in Rev 19. I have one more passage to give you.

Revelation 19:7-8

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honer to him: for the marriage supper of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready.

8 And to her it was given that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the linen is the righteousness of the saints.

It is the Bride that returns with Christ ( the church, the true church) These are not raptured people but the dead that are in heaven clothed in white as you have already seen. The dead in Christ is the army clothed in white returning from heaven with Jesus to earth as they return they catch the living up to meet them in the air the union of the Jesus, the dead in Christ, and the living saints is the Marriage as we all become one. We continue to earth destroy the wicked. Then we celebrate the wedding supper of the Lamb and enter into the Millennium as kings as priests.

OK, that is good. Where is the scripture that says all the wicked are destroyed at this time?

While I think JESUS and the saints reign from Heaven until the end of the Millennium, that is for another time.

Edited August 27, 2008 by kross

[kross]

I like this topic but my head is spinning from all of the recent conversation.

I would like to know the scriptures that teach that the dead in CHRIST are the ones that make of the army from Heaven at the end of the tribulation.

I would also like to see some of the scriptures that teach that all of the wicked will be destroyed at the end of the tribulation.

Thanks

K. Ross

Now to answer your 2nd question.

We see in Matthew 24:37-39 that Jesus says the 2nd coming will be just like the flood the wicked would not know it was coming until it came and destroys them all.

Matthew 24:37-39

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26-30 tells the same story but adds Lot and also give us a posttrib view of the rapture by saying the exact same day we will be removed in the exact same day Jesus returns to utterly destroy the wicked.

Luke 17:26-30

26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.It is very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

The same day Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels is the same day we are given rest and the same day He destroys the wicked with fire. this is described by John the baptist in Matthew 3.

Matthew 3:11-12

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The wheat Jesus gathers ( the rapture) but the chaff He burns with fire (the destruction of the wicked by fire explained in 2nd thess 1:6-10)

Lastly we see that when the wicked say peace and safty then sudden destruction will come upon them ( not a 7year period of destruction be sudden and total destruction in 1st thess 5:2-3.

1st Thessalonians 5:2-3

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

We see in 2nd thess 2:8 that the anti christ himself will be destroyed by the brightness of the 2nd coming of Christ.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

So we can see that not only are the wicked destroyed by fire at the posttrib 2nd coming of Christ but that this is when we are raptured and not a moment b4.

You must of missed this post it was right under the on about the dead returning from heaven with Jesus.

I did miss this. I see where it can be a good point.

The vrs from 2thess says coming with HIS angels, that would be after the Millennium. You already taught me that at the end of the Tribulation HE comes with the saints.

[kross]

I like this topic but my head is spinning from all of the recent conversation.

I would like to know the scriptures that teach that the dead in CHRIST are the ones that make of the army from Heaven at the end of the tribulation.

I would also like to see some of the scriptures that teach that all of the wicked will be destroyed at the end of the tribulation.

Thanks

K. Ross

Now to answer your 2nd question.

We see in Matthew 24:37-39 that Jesus says the 2nd coming will be just like the flood the wicked would not know it was coming until it came and destroys them all.

Matthew 24:37-39

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away, so shall the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:26-30 tells the same story but adds Lot and also give us a posttrib view of the rapture by saying the exact same day we will be removed in the exact same day Jesus returns to utterly destroy the wicked.

Luke 17:26-30

26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.It is very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that no not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.

The same day Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels is the same day we are given rest and the same day He destroys the wicked with fire. this is described by John the baptist in Matthew 3.

Matthew 3:11-12

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The wheat Jesus gathers ( the rapture) but the chaff He burns with fire (the destruction of the wicked by fire explained in 2nd thess 1:6-10)

Lastly we see that when the wicked say peace and safty then sudden destruction will come upon them ( not a 7year period of destruction be sudden and total destruction in 1st thess 5:2-3.

1st Thessalonians 5:2-3

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

We see in 2nd thess 2:8 that the anti christ himself will be destroyed by the brightness of the 2nd coming of Christ.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

So we can see that not only are the wicked destroyed by fire at the posttrib 2nd coming of Christ but that this is when we are raptured and not a moment b4.

You must of missed this post it was right under the on about the dead returning from heaven with Jesus.

I did miss this. I see where it can be a good point.

The vrs from 2thess says coming with HIS angels, that would be after the Millennium. You already taught me that at the end of the Tribulation HE comes with the saints.

Jesus does not come after the Millennium He is on earth for the Millennium. Where would He be coming from? He is already here on earth. It is true the Army returning with Him in Revelation 19:14 are the saints. However there will be angels with His as well at His 2nd coming As we see in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 the angels are the one that actually gathers the elect. and in 1st thess 4:16 it says Jesus returns with a shoul, THE VOICE OF AN ARCH ANGEL and the trump of God, and in the verse you are speaking of it clearly shows that when Jesus is revealed it will have mighty angels with Him.

1st Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24-27

24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

2nd Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

So although you are correct the Arny is many made up of the souls of the dead saints returning from heaven with Christ to receive their heavenly bodies. It will also include the living saints that are caught up to meet them in the air, as well as the ''mighty angels'' that Jesus will be revealed with.

Remember Jesus does not return to earth after the Millennium. He returns to earth b4 the Millennium and will be on earth for the Millennium. He is already on earth at the end of the Millennium, there will be no need to return to earth from earth.

I understand that you have said that JESUS and the saints will be on the earth. I do not agree with that. I am going to study some more on that aspect. I think JESUS comes to get us to "take us to where HE is" not join us where we are. Also, it still sets up a problem with the idea that JESUS is here on Earth with the saints and yet Satan is able to build an army from saints dwelling with JESUS.

[kross]

OK, for the record, I am a post-trib guy. That is never going to be in question.

I think the passages about the times of Noah refer to the marrying and giving in marriage and carrying on as normal. I do not think JESUS is saying that destruction will come upon them in this passage, I do think HE is saying that HIS appearing will come upon em in the same way as the flood.

It also seems clear in Rev 20 that this is in Heaven. The great white throne judgement is also in Heaven. JESUS said HE was going to prepare a place in HIS FATHERS house. HE also said HE would return for them that where HE is they would be also. The implication in context with all the scripture around it is that HE prepared a place in Heaven for them and that HE will return to take them to that place, not join them here.

I am confident that JESUS and the saints will come to the new Earth with the New Jeruselem, which is called "The Bride". This may indicate more than just a structure.

So, there is a difference of interpretation and understanding.

I can not take your understanding all the way to a great army for Satan to use at the end of the 1,000 years. If JESUS and the saints are on the Earth, how is Satan going to raise an army greater than the "Sands on the seashore"? Of all the other issues, why would JESUS save them and then let them be Satan's army. If these are the glorified saints, how does this happen?

Gog and Magog are nations that are not Jewish, how can Satan call an army from these nations if the only ones on Earth are glorified saints and Israel?

As i have said, I must study more.