OSAS, The Whole Story

[Rick-Parker]

"It's time to set the record straight once and for all." Jack Kelley. Let's stir the pot a little. Read the article.

[Guest shiloh357]

"It's time to set the record straight once and for all." Jack Kelley. Let's stir the pot a little. Read the article.

This is a quote from the article ''The one characteristic of God

[Larry 2]

"It's time to set the record straight once and for all." Jack Kelley. Let's stir the pot a little. Read the article.

Dear Article, or Jack Kelly, I once submitted a pamphlet I wrote titled "Salvation with Security" that was locked. Will I now be able to bring that forward in this discussion, or would I be able to resummit it as a new post? Thanks Article, or Jack Kelly in Jesus' name - larry2

[Guest shiloh357]

2nd Peter 2:20-22

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.

Enough said

Not only can we continue in sin after a false conversion but we can also turn from God after a true conversion.

Notice v. 22. You know why Peter refers to those people as being like a dog that returns to its vomit, or a washed pig that returns to the mud??? Because the "dog" and "pig" are still a "dog" and "pig." They were never changed. Salvation is an inward transformation where one is made a new creation. If a person can still return to the same sin and the same "mire" and relive the same life they had before, they were never changed. They are still a "dog" or a "pig."

A true Christian cannot sin and enjoy it.

[other one]

I agree Shilo. I personally don't think this subject can be discussed to any conclusion until and unless everyone can agree as to what has to occur to become saved.

Before that most of the time people are comparing apples and oranges and will never agree on what color they are.

[other one]

I have 6 scenarios,

#1 A man was brought up in church his whole life and he has always believed in Jesus. He was baptized when he was 12 yrs old. Through his teenage years he confessed Christ as his Savior, yet he partied with his friends. As an adult he continued to go to church. He and his wife had premarital sex for years before their marriage. He raised his children in church, but he still drinks, smokes, and curses. He treats his family and others badly. He has not repented since his baptism, but he does believe himself to be a Christian.

#2 A man was not raised in church. After college he met a Christian girl and started attending church with her. He got saved and baptized, then married the Christian girl, but he never changed his lifestyle. He works hard during the week, but goes to the bar every Friday and Saturday night. He does attend church every Sunday morning. He pays tithes, raises his children in church. He has cheated on his wife a couple of times, but she does not know. He treats his family and others well, but he has not repented since he originally got saved.

#3 A man was raised in church. As an adult he left church, denounced his faith, and has nothing to do with God.

#4 A man was raised in church. As an adult he left the church and denounced his faith. Later in life he reconciled with God and got ordained. He now lives a very holy life and pastors a church.

#5 A man grew up in church. As an adult he left church, and lived a very sinful life. In his thirties he and his wife returned to church. They both repented, and he was re-baptized. After a few years they started going to church less and less. After about five years they are not going to church at all. He begins to drink again. He and his wife eventually divorced and he becomes an alcoholic and womanizer. He lives out his life never repenting nor going to church again.

#6 A man was not brought up in church. He has lived a very sinful life. In his late twenties he got saved. He then devoted his entire life to God. He also studies scripture and prays every day. In his thirties he marries a Christian woman. He is not perfect but he does put God first. When he makes mistakes he asks God to forgive him and he does his best to live a life pleasing to God.

How many of these people are going to make to heaven and which ones do you believe they are? Remember if you believe in OSAS they all would which is simply untrue.

Jesus asks a similar question to the Pharisees in Matthew 21:28-31

Matthew 21:28-31

28 But what do you think? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, son, go work today in the vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not, but afterward he repented and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered, and said, I go sir; and went not

31a Whether of the two did the will of his father?

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that say unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that does the will of my father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name did many wonderful works?

23 And I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Only those that are obedient to God's word is going to heaven not every one that believe in Christ, not everyone that calls Christ Lord, not everyone that truly believe themselves to be going to heaven, but only those that do the will of the Father.

When you say that these people were saved what do you mean........ what did they do..... how did they go about it. You can't tell from any of these if they really are saved. I know a lot of unbelievers that are better at doing Christian things than some professed Christians do.

What constitutes salvation. You can't discuss OSAS until we agree on what salvation is. your just end up with confusing posts such as this one listing all these different people and never really reaching any conclusion. So the scripture you post is almost irrelevant for we don't know what constitutes a saved person.

[Guest shiloh357]

Not to turn this into a calvinist vs arminian debate but you almost have to be calvinist to believe in OSAS. If you believe in free will as some that believe in OSAS do. You cannot reconcile the belief of free will with OSAS unless you believe you free will is forfeited at salvation. If you are free to receive salvation you are free to give it back, you can choose to turn from God and back to your old life.

That really is not true. There is a school of OSAS that is not really based on Calvinism or the doctrine of the perseverance of hte saints.

If you are free to receive salvation you are free to give it back, you can choose to turn from God and back to your old life.

that would be true if salvation was based on you holding on to God. Salvation is an act of God. Salvation is God holding on to you, not you holding on to Him.

[Guest shiloh357]

Let's look at these verses one at a time.

Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?

Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.

The problem still exists that a dog will return to its vomit becasue that is what dogs do. Those who return to their old life, were never changed. They are still sinners with out Christ.

You are assuming that this is talking about saved people, but that is not what the passage is talking about. Peter in chapter 2 is talking about false prophets. These are not people who are saved and lost it. You need to examine the context and learn how to study Scripture.

This is why prooftexting is so dangerous. people just grab a verse or two and assign it the values they want it to have. That is what you have done here.

[Guest shiloh357]

If that is the case then all would go to heaven because God wants all to go to heaven. The fact is we have choice and we can choose not to be saved, that freedom of choice is not forfieted when we get saved, therefore we can choose to walk away from God even though He does not want us to.

Clearly, you don't understand the doctrine of salvation. The probem is that you are operating from assumptions you have not properly demonstrated fom Scripture.

For example: Please provide a biblical example of a person who was saved, but consciously decided "I no longer want to be saved and hereby forfeit my salvation." If you cannot provide such an example your assumption is baseless and lacks credibility.

I did not say you had to be calvinist to believe OSAS. I said you almost had to be.

Which is like saying there is a difference between cutting down a tree and chopping down a tree.

I went on to say that the doctrine of free will and the doctrine of OSAS cannot exist side by side

Which shows that you are not really understanding OSAS. It appears you are assigning your own motives to it.

[other one]

I have 6 scenarios,

#1 A man was brought up in church his whole life and he has always believed in Jesus. He was baptized when he was 12 yrs old. Through his teenage years he confessed Christ as his Savior, yet he partied with his friends. As an adult he continued to go to church. He and his wife had premarital sex for years before their marriage. He raised his children in church, but he still drinks, smokes, and curses. He treats his family and others badly. He has not repented since his baptism, but he does believe himself to be a Christian.

#2 A man was not raised in church. After college he met a Christian girl and started attending church with her. He got saved and baptized, then married the Christian girl, but he never changed his lifestyle. He works hard during the week, but goes to the bar every Friday and Saturday night. He does attend church every Sunday morning. He pays tithes, raises his children in church. He has cheated on his wife a couple of times, but she does not know. He treats his family and others well, but he has not repented since he originally got saved.

#3 A man was raised in church. As an adult he left church, denounced his faith, and has nothing to do with God.

#4 A man was raised in church. As an adult he left the church and denounced his faith. Later in life he reconciled with God and got ordained. He now lives a very holy life and pastors a church.

#5 A man grew up in church. As an adult he left church, and lived a very sinful life. In his thirties he and his wife returned to church. They both repented, and he was re-baptized. After a few years they started going to church less and less. After about five years they are not going to church at all. He begins to drink again. He and his wife eventually divorced and he becomes an alcoholic and womanizer. He lives out his life never repenting nor going to church again.

#6 A man was not brought up in church. He has lived a very sinful life. In his late twenties he got saved. He then devoted his entire life to God. He also studies scripture and prays every day. In his thirties he marries a Christian woman. He is not perfect but he does put God first. When he makes mistakes he asks God to forgive him and he does his best to live a life pleasing to God.

How many of these people are going to make to heaven and which ones do you believe they are? Remember if you believe in OSAS they all would which is simply untrue.

Jesus asks a similar question to the Pharisees in Matthew 21:28-31

Matthew 21:28-31

28 But what do you think? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, son, go work today in the vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not, but afterward he repented and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered, and said, I go sir; and went not

31a Whether of the two did the will of his father?

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that say unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that does the will of my father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name did many wonderful works?

23 And I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Only those that are obedient to God's word is going to heaven not every one that believe in Christ, not everyone that calls Christ Lord, not everyone that truly believe themselves to be going to heaven, but only those that do the will of the Father.

When you say that these people were saved what do you mean........ what did they do..... how did they go about it. You can't tell from any of these if they really are saved. I know a lot of unbelievers that are better at doing Christian things than some professed Christians do.

What constitutes salvation. You can't discuss OSAS until we agree on what salvation is. your just end up with confusing posts such as this one listing all these different people and never really reaching any conclusion. So the scripture you post is almost irrelevant for we don't know what constitutes a saved person.

They committed their lives to Christ they admitted their need for a savior and they asked Jesus to forgive them and be that savior. They were born again, they began a true relationship with Jesus.

Just so you know there are 2 in here that had what you would call false conversion to try and explain away balcksliding, 1 that never got saved, 1 that was true saved and then backslid, and 2 that will make it to heaven.

The point is that the OSAS doctrine would say 5 of the 6 were going to heaven, at least if they were honest would have to say 3 of the 6 were going to heaven even though 1 of the 3 went back into open unrepentant sin. The fact is only 2 would have made it.

First of all you would have to take each of these people to their actual deaths to know one way or the other. One does not attain salvation unless one makes Jesus Christ his Lord. Putting Jesus in your heart or believing that Jesus is who he says he is will not get you anything. You have to believe and accept his Lordship, and if you stray from that point He through the Holy Spirit will correct and guide you whether or not you like it. In the end (that would be the very moment of your death) ones salvation is completely between him and Jesus and none of us know for sure of anyone else's salvation because we can not know their heart at the moment of death. Like it or not, Jesus told us of the parable of the workers who worked hard all day and those who came right at the end of the day and both received their agreed upon wages.

So, this subject can't be discussed because no one know who is and isn't saved at the moment of their death but Jesus and that person.

Can a person outwardly denounce Jesus after they have really made Him their Lord and partaken of the things that entails......... I really don't know, and don't intend to find out; because the only way to know that for sure is do it........ and that simple isn't going to happen.