Is a belief in the Trinity Doctrine neccessary for salvation?

[AnotherTraveler]

The mystery of godliness is great, you are all my brethren, we were all adopted into this great family of God by His grace and mercy, and though we don't look the same or understand the same, we have the same Spirit that cries Abba Father, and the same God that sent His son to die and live again for us all.

[AnotherTraveler]

Why would Jesus need to pray to Himself?

You see, even here you have to make a separation between the Father and Jesus.

How can light be both a particle and a wave?

How can Jesus have the fullness of the Godhead and yet at the same time the Spirit descended on Him when He was baptized, and Jesus often went alone to pray? Why would God need to pray and fast?

Either you reject one and are left with an inconsistency, or you embrace both and marvel at how the two contradictory concepts are yet somehow complementary.

From - Justified in the Spirit thread

Perhaps the most common stumbling block concerning Jesus' deity is an apparent inability to answer the question, "How can Jesus be the Everlasting Father and still pray to the Father?"

Good question. Nevertheless, Isaiah said the "Prince of Peace" would be none other than "The Everlasting Father." Indeed it is a mystery, but just because something is a mystery does not make it impossible. A mystery is simply proof of ignorance, a lack of knowledge and understanding.

A good basic guideline for understanding Christ, the God/man, is to remember that God in His pure essence "is a spirit" (John 4:24). By Jesus' own words we know that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:29). Therefore, God in His pure essence as a spirit is not limited to a finite visible form. Being omnipresent, He is everywhere all the time, throughout time, at the same time - past, present, future. Therefore Jesus, while locked in time and space by His human flesh, through prayer communed with His Omnipresent Spirit, "the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity" (Isaiah 57:15).

Now ponder this, if you could simply go back one minute in time you could both see and be with yourself. You could even talk to yourself. Would that make you two? Certainly it would seem as if there were two. Nevertheless, in truth you are still only one. One in heart, one in mind, but in two places. It is the escape from time's hold that affords you the ability to be in two places simultaneously. You, from the future, could warn yourself of what is yet to come. This is what Jesus revealed to Nicodemus. "No man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven," (John 3:13). Jesus was there talking to Nicodemus, yet referring to Himself as "is in heaven." It is this unique aspect of God's Omnipresence by which He knows those who would be saved from the foundations of the world.

"Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am He" (Isaiah 41:4).

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel will stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isaiah 46:9,10).

"I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of My mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. I have even from the beginning declared it to thee: before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them" (Isaiah 48:3,5).

At Athens Paul encourage the men to "seek the Lord [Jesus], if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us: for in Him we live and move and have our very being . . . " (Acts 17:27,28). Again in Psalm 139 David reasons with God saying, "Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of morning, and dwell In the uttermost parts of the sea: even there shall Your hand lead me and Your right hand hold me" (Verses 7-10).

"Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD" (Jeremiah 23:24).

Thus we can see the omnipresence of the "eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God."

Wow, this is a really well thought out reply!

[BlindSeeker]

Why would Jesus need to pray to Himself?

You see, even here you have to make a separation between the Father and Jesus.

How can light be both a particle and a wave?

How can Jesus have the fullness of the Godhead and yet at the same time the Spirit descended on Him when He was baptized, and Jesus often went alone to pray? Why would God need to pray and fast?

Either you reject one and are left with an inconsistency, or you embrace both and marvel at how the two contradictory concepts are yet somehow complementary.

From - Justified in the Spirit thread

Perhaps the most common stumbling block concerning Jesus' deity is an apparent inability to answer the question, "How can Jesus be the Everlasting Father and still pray to the Father?"

Good question. Nevertheless, Isaiah said the "Prince of Peace" would be none other than "The Everlasting Father." Indeed it is a mystery, but just because something is a mystery does not make it impossible. A mystery is simply proof of ignorance, a lack of knowledge and understanding.

A good basic guideline for understanding Christ, the God/man, is to remember that God in His pure essence "is a spirit" (John 4:24). By Jesus' own words we know that "a spirit hath not flesh and bones" (Luke 24:29). Therefore, God in His pure essence as a spirit is not limited to a finite visible form. Being omnipresent, He is everywhere all the time, throughout time, at the same time - past, present, future. Therefore Jesus, while locked in time and space by His human flesh, through prayer communed with His Omnipresent Spirit, "the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity" (Isaiah 57:15).

Now ponder this, if you could simply go back one minute in time you could both see and be with yourself. You could even talk to yourself. Would that make you two? Certainly it would seem as if there were two. Nevertheless, in truth you are still only one. One in heart, one in mind, but in two places. It is the escape from time's hold that affords you the ability to be in two places simultaneously. You, from the future, could warn yourself of what is yet to come. This is what Jesus revealed to Nicodemus. "No man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven," (John 3:13). Jesus was there talking to Nicodemus, yet referring to Himself as "is in heaven." It is this unique aspect of God's Omnipresence by which He knows those who would be saved from the foundations of the world.

"Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am He" (Isaiah 41:4).

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel will stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isaiah 46:9,10).

"I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of My mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. I have even from the beginning declared it to thee: before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them" (Isaiah 48:3,5).

At Athens Paul encourage the men to "seek the Lord [Jesus], if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us: for in Him we live and move and have our very being . . . " (Acts 17:27,28). Again in Psalm 139 David reasons with God saying, "Whither shall I go from Thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of morning, and dwell In the uttermost parts of the sea: even there shall Your hand lead me and Your right hand hold me" (Verses 7-10).

"Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD" (Jeremiah 23:24).

Thus we can see the omnipresence of the "eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God."

Wow, this is a really well thought out reply!

Thank you.

[truthbringer]

I voted yes, although I don't believe that you have to understand the Trinity to have salvation. I also believe that many well meaning faithful Christians who have a deep faith in Christ as their Lord but have been taught incorrectly about who He is will find salvation and in the end will be saved by their Lord. In fact they may have been told they don't believe in the Trinity when in actuality they Do believe in the Trinity. We have two choices, either Christ was God or we are praying to multiple God's and are polytheists, much like the Hindu's who have multiple God's. To pray to anyone but God is blaspheme, thus if we pray to Christ directly and He is not God, but some sort of "lesser" being we are now in the position of worshipping two God's.

My yes vote was mainly to affirm that this IS who Christ is, and if you don't know who Christ is it is a pretty big problem.

The places that reject the Trinity such as the Mormons and the JW's always seem to slide into very weird doctrines.

I believe a person needs to believe the trinity to be saved.

For GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS ONLY BEGOTEN SON. Jn 3: 16

GOD sent HIS SON that the world might be saved. Jn 3: 17.

Baptising then in the name of THE FATHER, SON and HOLY GHOST. Matt 28: 19.

According to HIS mercy HE saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the HOLY GHOST.

[other one]

If I may just chime in here.

We know the Scripture says that "God is One."

Yet we know Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

What we have here is something that exists outside of our conventional understanding. It is like the old physics question of how can light be both a particle and a wave?

Well, the question was answered by the discovery that light is a photon and then understanding the properties of that photon.

Instead of arguing "particle vs. wave", we need to figure out how the two contradictions can both be true.

How is God "One" yet be "Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?

My personal opinion is that it is more important to believe in the absolute truth of the two "contradictory" positions without fully understanding the nature of how the contradictions fit together than it is to have an agreement on how the contradictions fit together.

As long as you believe that Jesus is the same God as the Father and the Holy Spirit is the same God as the Father and Son, I'm not too worried about how you reconcile the issue.

What bothers me are those who believe Jesus and / or the Holy Spirit are "lesser" than the Father or not truly God at all.

Neb, to discuss this I would have to know exactly what that word "God" means to you.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Sep 14 2008, 09:00 PM)

QUOTE

The central issue is not what oneness doctrine teaches or not, but rather if holding or not holding the trinity doctrine is a salvation requirement, which of course it is not.

I don't think smiles or anyone else is claiming that one has to believe in the trinity to GET saved, but that since it is part of the essential, defining elements of the Christian faith, a true Christian will not reject it.

If a person claims to be a Christian, but rejects the Deity of Jesus, or the bodily resurrection, or the virgin birth, etc., then it is going to be difficult for them to make the case that they were truly saved, as these kinds of things, as well as the Trinity are so fundamental to the Christian faith.

I don't think salvation requires us to "make the case" that we are truely saved. It would be good if my brethren thought on my behalf that I am saved, but I cartainly wouldn't jump through any hoops to prove so to another that has received grace the same way that I did, by faith.

The apostle John, in 1st, 2nd and 3rd John is constantly warning fellow Christians about those who deny certain things about Jesus such as the doctrine that Jesus came in the flesh or those who practice wickedness. He gives them ways to know who is truly in the faith or not.

It is not a matter of expecting anyone to jump through hoops. No one is expecting anyone to perform good enough to prove they are Christian, but there are simply some doctrines you cannot reject and but yet demand to be recognized as a "Christian."

We are not talking about speaking in tongues, or the rapture or some other peripheral issue. We are talking about essential, foundation truths of the Christian faith.

I believe all the scriptures, and it is certain that Jesus was born of a virgin, that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, and that Jesus was bodily ressurected, the scriptures say so, HOWEVER...

The scriptures are silent on trinity, never once mentioned. Many of the terms used in the trinity doctrine are also not found in scriptures anywhere. Search for co-anything, you will find none. Words like essense, phrases like seperate but equal, just not there, anywhere in the scriptures.

The Bible also never mentions Grandfathers. So that argument is really not valid as it is an argument from silence.

The word Trinity does not appear, since it is a word that originates from the Greek. But Deut. 6:4 states that God is "echad." That is the word for one, but it is not used as "one" as an ordinal number like "one apple" in Deut. 6:4. It is the same word used in Genesis when it says that man and wife become "one" flesh. It is also used in reference to cluster of grapes.

The concept of the Trinity is there in the Hebrew "echad."

I love the Lord with all my heart, but I do not promote extra-scriptural doctrines, even ones that I might really like, because they are, in the end, unprovable, and being not found in scripture, they can't pass the scriptural tests so necessary to establish doctrine.

Well, if you believe the Trinity is extra-biblical, it is because you fail realize that the Bible reveals the Trinity, even if it does call it by that name.

[Guest shiloh357]

Is Jesus The Everlasing Father??

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(Isaiah 9:6-7)

Here we have one of the most important passages for understanding Jesus' Deity. God says in other places that He will not share His glory with any one, yet for God Himself to bestow these titles on upon someone amounts to glorifying that person. Which means that the child being described is God.

What is peculiar is that God is calling someone other than Himself "the Everlasting Father." How can this child be the Everlasting Father??? The problem is that English is far less precise than Hebrew. The English simply does not communicate the correct sense from the Hebrew usage. In Hebrew, the term "Everlasting Father" is the term "avi ad." In Hebrew it means "The Father of Eternity." It is not saying that Jesus is God the Father. In Hebrew it is a term that refers to Jesus as the Author or Creator of Eternity.

The word for "Father" in the Hebrew construction of Isaiah 9:6 is not being used in a paternal sense, but in the sense of being the initiator or the one who sets something into motion. It is similar in essence to how we refer to Alexander Graham Bell as the "Father of modern telecomunications."

Jesus is NEVER referred to God the Father or as being one and the same with the Father anywhere in the Bible. Jesus prayed to His Father in Heaven. Jesus gave up certain privileges and prerogatives when He came to earth. One of those prviliges was omnipresence.

[other one]

Shilo, I know enough about Greek and Hebrew to realize just how much I don't know. The words in Hebrew and Greek that are translated into the word God/god seem to be the same word as far as I can tell. Is there something that would make a difference between using the word God/god rather than just use the word deity?

[Guest shiloh357]

Shilo, I know enough about Greek and Hebrew to realize just how much I don't know. The words in Hebrew and Greek that are translated into the word God/god seem to be the same word as far as I can tell. Is there something that would make a difference between using the word God/god rather than just use the word deity?

Context is the biggest determining factor. Kind of like we can tell the difference between the way the word love is used when it is being used in an erotic sense and when some one says that they love chocolate icecream.

Context is far and away more important than the actual dictionary or lexical definition of a word. Hebrew unfortunately, also does not have captital and lower case letters to help us distinquish between Elohim and elohim.

[nebula]

You may not have but the trinity doctrine does it teaches He is 1/3 ''God the Son'' separate from the Father and Holy Spirit but Colossians 2:9 clearly says that the fullness of the Godhead or to use trinitarian language the fullness of the trinity Father, Son, and Holy Spirit dwelt in Christ bodily

If Jesus was God the Son co-equal to God the Father why would He need to pray at all? another question why did Jesus say the Father was greater than He was if The Father and the Son are co-equal? If you answer those questions, I think you will also have the answer to yours

You are completely missing the point of what I am saying.

I wasn't asking you for answers.

But you speak as if you have God all figured out in this nice neat package. And I am saying that package doesn't work.

There are many dimensions to God, yet you have restricted Him to just one.

That dimension itself is not wrong, but to deny the other dimensions as being equally valid is wrong.

You need to ponder how these other dimensions can all work together - but without using your chosen dimension as a base, for they are all equal.