Apostles....or gamblers with Apostleship?

[Botz]

They prayed. They cast lots. God honored that. They had their answer.

God works and deals with people in the place and time where they are at. he works in history; not apart from in when it comes to His dealings with mankind. What today is considered "Gambling" and is frowned upon if not actually called sinful may have been a perfectly acceptable way to allow God's providence to move in the times of the apostles. God meets us where we are at, culture and all.

I think this is making an assumption, emphasis mine.

Maybe we should all just start praying God will give us answers to prayers based on the toss of a coin.

Jesus said they should wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father, then he was taken up.

The went to Jerusalem and decided they should pick a new Apostle.

I wonder if even one of them said... "Hey Jesus said wait, maybe that is what we should do."

Hey Mudcat...what would you have them do, twiddle their thumbs until the Holy Ghost came upon them, or maybe read a few periodicals. The fact is that they were all gathered together with one heart and mind, waiting and expecting the promise of the Holy Ghost in accordance with the words and instruction of their L-rd and their Messiah. In the meantime they prayed, and out of that prayer time...ie G-d put it in their hearts... they got down to the buisness of choosing another apostle.

They were obedient to their instructions, and there is absolutely no indication that they stepped beyond what was required of them in seeking G-d and appointing another apostle.

It is interesting to note that they could have choosen more than one, and had maybe several extra, but obviously there was great prophetic significance in limiting the initial apostleship to 12, especially as it was the example that Jesus chose in the first place, and as we have already seen, is somehow representative of the twelve tribes.

Paul was no less an apostle, in fact he argues/implies that he was more zealous in his application of the office than others, but he does not head up one of the twelve tribes. Doubtless his eternal reward will not be any the less, it is just that his ministry did not cover the uniqueness associated with the original twelve.

[Mudcat]

Hey Mudcat...what would you have them do, twiddle their thumbs until the Holy Ghost came upon them, or maybe read a few periodicals. The fact is that they were all gathered together with one heart and mind, waiting and expecting the promise of the Holy Ghost in accordance with the words and instruction of their L-rd and their Messiah. In the meantime they prayed, and out of that prayer time...ie G-d put it in their hearts... they got down to the buisness of choosing another apostle.

They were obedient to their instructions, and there is absolutely no indication that they stepped beyond what was required of them in seeking G-d and appointing another apostle.

It is interesting to note that they could have choosen more than one, and had maybe several extra, but obviously there was great prophetic significance in limiting the initial apostleship to 12, especially as it was the example that Jesus chose in the first place, and as we have already seen, is somehow representative of the twelve tribes.

Botz,

Based on my limited previous interaction with you, I would say, that you always do an exceptionally good job of proposing a compelling argument. I am not as sold on the idea, I still think it quite possible this decision was premature. However, you have at least made me think about this a little more in depth.

Paul was no less an apostle, in fact he argues/implies that he was more zealous in his application of the office than others, but he does not head up one of the twelve tribes. Doubtless his eternal reward will not be any the less, it is just that his ministry did not cover the uniqueness associated with the original twelve.

I certainly wouldn't refute that Paul was an Apostle. In fact I believe he was.

I am just pointing out, that his qualifications were not suitable to be considered one of the 12, as you seem inclined to agree with as well. I would note that it does put Christianity in a situation where either there is a duplicity in the term Apostle or the definition of Apostle has to be widened past the qualifications presented in Acts 1, just to encompass Paul's Apostolic authority.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Mudcat

[Mudcat]

The scriptures don't tell us one way or another in this case. So anything we say would be speculation

That is what makes it interesting, to me.

Much or Christian doctrine, beliefs and teachings are ironed out, and irrefutable, at least from a perspective of defining doctrine from within the Bible.

For some weird reason, I like talking about the things we don't have the answers to. Or perhaps the things we have many answers to.

I would "speculate " that a lot of what defines a person is not just their acceptance of the blatant truth of the Gospel, but also in how they come to conclusions about some of these things we don't have all the answers for.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Mudcat

[Botz]

Mudcat...

I certainly wouldn't refute that Paul was an Apostle. In fact I believe he was.

I am just pointing out, that his qualifications were not suitable to be considered one of the 12, as you seem inclined to agree with as well. I would note that it does put Christianity in a situation where either there is a duplicity in the term Apostle or the definition of Apostle has to be widened to encompass

Paul.

Hi Mudcat, yes I think there is a distinction in Apostleship, and 'the Twelve' were in a unique ministry, with the requirement that they had been actively involved with the L-rd in His life-time as I understand it.

As far as I am aware the requirements for Apostleship later, were that foremostly they were chosen of G-d, and that the mantle of their authority was self- evident, in that they were devoted to the Scriptures, and to Prayer, and were Workers of Signs, Wonders and Miracles.

There are many people around today who appear to assume the office of Apostle, without demonstrating what I have always thought were the requirements. Nowadays it seems to have more to do with Church planting.

2 Corin 12:11 ..... Actually I should have been commended by you, for in no respect was I inferior to the most eminent apostles, even though I am a nobody. 12 The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

[ayin jade]

These are some that practiced casting lots so it was not an uncommon thing to do when choosing someone for service.

The casting of lots to choose a replacement for Judas occurred prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once He came, the use of lots was no longer "needed" to know His will in making such a choice.

[Mudcat]

The casting of lots to choose a replacement for Judas occurred prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once He came, the use of lots was no longer "needed" to know His will in making such a choice.

I think this is worthy of noting, that this decision was made prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I suppose this is the primary reason I have for questioning it.

[Botz]

The casting of lots to choose a replacement for Judas occurred prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once He came, the use of lots was no longer "needed" to know His will in making such a choice.

I think this is worthy of noting, that this decision was made prior to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I suppose this is the primary reason I have for questioning it.

I think what Ayin Jade has brought up is a very astute observation.

I do not think it negates the way in which Matthias was chosen, which was still done righteously and in agreement, but with the giving of the Spirit indwelling each person there comes a change.

Even with the Holy Spirit though, there is the need to submit to each other what you believe G-d is showing, in order to clarify and get a general consensus of opinion. It is not a 'given' that just because someone is born-again and baptised in the Holy Ghost that they are led by G-d, and in this day and age too many people have claimed to have heard from G-d, when the evidence and their character are deeply flawed. We are all human, and it is so so easy to mix the spirit and the soul and produce something that is not substantial, and will not last.

Acts 15:24

[EricH]

The casting of lots was very common in that culture. Just as taking votes is in ours.