To be free or not to be free... 'That is the question'

[Larry 2]

name='Mudcat' date='Sep 27 2008, 08:58 AM' post='1261621']

So the question is, do you find anything problematic in the Molinistic view? If so what?

Quote -Is that God being aware of all possibilities, would also be aware of what decisions those, to whom the Gospel has not been preached, would make had it been given to them.

Response - Colossians 1:23. "the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven" Does it continue in this day? I would think so.

Larry, Are you suggesting that every creature 'under heaven' has heard the Gospel of Christ?

If so, why? Do you really think everyone that has died on the face of this planet knew about Jesus?

Quote - Are you suggesting that every creature 'under heaven' has heard the Gospel of Christ?

If so, why? Do you really think everyone that has died on the face of this planet knew about Jesus?

Response - How did the prophets know Him? They didn't all have contact with one another; God contacted them by voice, or visions, or dreams. God is righteous, and just. If He could judge one person without giving them a chance would that be right? I added a small true story I have on another thread showing how he can reach someone that couldn't be reached

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Yes God does reach all, and always has. I do believe all receive the preaching of the word of God by the following verses. Those that cannot hear God; He can reach in other ways.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. And this commission was completed.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Everyone); whereof I Paul am made a minister;

I offer the following story I heard from my former pastor that passed 2 years ago at the age of 94 to show how God reaches those considered unreachable to us. Can the one in a coma hear the word?

DUMMY WALKER

I want to tell the story of a man called Dummy Walker. I heard this from a man that knew a man, and it is supposed to be true. The man that told it to me knew the original man that was the pastor at this event and trusted his truthfulness about it.

Many years ago before Heller Keller as the miracle worker came around, deaf persons had no sign language, and virtually no way of communicating except grunts, waving their arms for attention, etc. and Dummy certainly fit that category. We don't hear that term used much anymore because deaf people communicate very well and they are able to verbalize now due to new audio techniques allowing them to hear their own voices so they learn to pronounce words.

Well, back to the events that were about to take place that gave me chills when I heard it; have you ever trembled when the Holy Spirit takes hold of you so hard and puts something new into your life that you don't know what to do, and you felt like just getting up and shouting thank You Jesus?

Got to get back to the story or I'll run out of paper before I can finish it. There was a five night revival starting one night in a small Texas town; probably Dallas in its beginning (that's not part of the story and I don't really know if I'm telling it exactly right anyhow.) but on the first night Dummy, his father, mother, and his younger sister attended the meeting. At the end of the sermon, the pastor and the evangelist or whatever gave the call for anyone not saved to come forward and accept Jesus and they would talk to them and tell them what to do.

Well, guess what? Here comes Dummy to the front not able to have heard anything and the pastor was caught off guard not knowing what to do. He sat Dummy back in his seat. The pastor and the evangelist went to the parents the next day and asked what they could do and how would they know if Dummy understood. His father told them that Dummy wasn't stupid, only deaf and he had learned to do chores by imitating them, and the mother said something along the same line. His slightly younger sister had taught Sunday school for five years and said how she tried every way she knew of to tell Dummy about Jesus and never knew if he understood anything.

Second night of the revival and at the end of the meeting the invitation was given again and this time Dummy got up and went past the pastor and evangelist to the front of the altar, lifted his hands heavenward and seemed to grab hold of something and return it to his chest, then he went back to his pew and just sat there; certainly with out comment, he couldn't talk.

Third night through the fifth night Dummy would go to the meeting, and when the invitation was offered, he would look around seeing someone he didn't know, go to them and point his finger toward heaven, then point it to their chest in a repeated tapping of their chest. Pesky guy wasn't he?

Praise God, He can do anything, anything and He makes the deaf to hear, and He made us the blind to see Him, didn't He? Do not think that those of you who witness to others are not getting through to them, but remember that it is you planting the seed, and maybe a pastor watering, but it is God that gives the increase.

[EricH]

The essential feature of Molinism is middle knowledge. It is a complex concept that is not without challenges (as all positions have challenges). Will post more later

[Mudcat]

Hi Larry,

Quote - Are you suggesting that every creature 'under heaven' has heard the Gospel of Christ?

If so, why? Do you really think everyone that has died on the face of this planet knew about Jesus?

Response - How did the prophets know Him? They didn't all have contact with one another; God contacted them by voice, or visions, or dreams. God is righteous, and just. If He could judge one person without giving them a chance would that be right? I added a small true story I have on another thread showing how he can reach someone that couldn't be reached

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Paul seems to be referencing all creation understanding that it was made by God.

Did Jesus die to save the salamanders? If so, do salamanders automatically know this?

Yes God does reach all, and always has. I do believe all receive the preaching of the word of God by the following verses. Those that cannot hear God; He can reach in other ways.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. And this commission was completed.

If the commission is completed, why do we still have missionaries?

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven (Everyone); whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Same thing as the verse in Romans. It would be comforting, if all new the Gospel, but they don't. That is why we are still going into all the world.

I offer the following story I heard from my former pastor that passed 2 years ago at the age of 94 to show how God reaches those considered unreachable to us. Can the one in a coma hear the word?

DUMMY WALKER

I want to tell the story of a man called Dummy Walker. I heard this from a man that knew a man, and it is supposed to be true. The man that told it to me knew the original man that was the pastor at this event and trusted his truthfulness about it.

<snip>

Praise God, He can do anything, anything and He makes the deaf to hear, and He made us the blind to see Him, didn't He? Do not think that those of you who witness to others are not getting through to them, but remember that it is you planting the seed, and maybe a pastor watering, but it is God that gives the increase.

That is a nice story and it is a wonderful example of how God can move in a heart that is receptive to the word.

I have another story.

Missionaries went to every remote village and tribe that has no touch with the outside world. Surprisingly, they discovered that everyone there knew about Jesus and his work on the cross for them. Many were Christians. They asked them how they found out about Christ. The villagers said, "Oh we just figured it out by looking at the marvelous way the world is made."

This is not a true story.

[EricH]

The real issue in wrestling through the Molinist framework involves how Molinists define free-will (libertarian), and the intersection of that definition of Free-will and middle knowledge. The implications of that intersection have will have ramifiications for how we define certain aspects of God's attributes. That is where most of the concerns arise regarding this position.

[Mudcat]

The real issue in wrestling through the Molinist framework involves how Molinists define free-will (libertarian), and the intersection of that definition of Free-will and middle knowledge. The implications of that intersection have will have ramifiications for how we define certain aspects of God's attributes. That is where most of the concerns arise regarding this position.

Eric,

I suppose I could see where you might derive those conclusions and I certainly wouldn't be inclined to disagree.

Though it would be a little out of bounds from its original intent, I would suggest that this 'most perfect' of many choices has its own strictures which in many ways fall into line with a statist philosophy. Simply in that our present state regardless of our ability to decide for ourselves is still singularly bound up in God's initial decision.

edit add-

A possible better expression may be that, free-will is a trap within it itself. We have no power to decide any differently than God has already foreseen us choosing. There is no escaping God's understanding of us, nor are there any surprises for him.

Regardless of what I choose for myself tomorrow, God was aware of that choice at the foundation of the world.

Sometimes I think the battles over free will and irresistible grace are more along the lines or stubbornness of semantics, than anything else.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Edited September 29, 2008 by Mudcat

[Mudcat]

sorry duplicate....

replied when I should have edited

Edited September 29, 2008 by Mudcat

[traveller]

sorry duplicate....

replied when I should have edited

Now cut that out!

[LadyRaven]

sorry duplicate....

replied when I should have edited

[EricH]

Molinism has a couple of issues that need to be addressed. The first is its insistence on libertarian free-will. Libertarian free will is defined as the ability in any given set of circumstances (all things beng what they are), to choose differently. Simply put, libertarian free will maintains that in any given set of circumstances, for a person to be truly free, they need to be able to choose any set of options. That circumstances and conditions cannot be predictors of choice.

This creates a problem for the Molinist position. One of the tenents of Molinism is that God operates on circumstances so that a person freely chooses. The problem is that the definition of freedom they have chosen (libertarian) holds that circumstances cannot be predictors or causes of choice. That for a person to be free there needs to be an equal chance that they could choose any number of things in a given set of circumstances. So the position has some logical issues to wrestle with. (It is internally contradictory)

A second consideration is that the notion of libertarian free-will does not seem to be scriptural. As I read scripture the notion of free-will that seems to be taught is one that is "compatibilistic". namely that human freedom is the ability to act in a way where they do not feel contrained. Calvin also taught there was "middle knowledge". But he also taught that the freedom man had was not to make any choice independent of circumstances. He believed that circumstances are predictors of action, and that God works in circumstances in such a way that people make the decisions they make. Molinarre believed that there were certain aspects of human action that God could no know. That is necessary to have true libertarian freedom.

[EricH]

Sometimes I think the battles over free will and irresistible grace are more along the lines or stubbornness of semantics, than anything else.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

I think you are right is some cases. But I also think it is right and good that we expore the implications of any position logically and theologically