The divorce and remarriage question

[Smalcald]

Yes in some cases I see what you are saying about not wanting to admit when we are wrong. I also agree that God's Word is complete.

However the more I really look at what is happening in how people read scripture, the more I am convinced that honest Christians will simply never agree on some doctrine, and at the same time both claiming the same whole Word of God, this is where the Church must provide help and guidance. We need to look only as far as our own thousands of denominations all agreeing that the bible alone is the Word of God and without error; and all honestly disagreeing on many doctrines.

This example on the question of marriage and divorce and remarriage is one of those numerous cases, we are hopelessly split and we are all reading the same bible. I don't think Deut is trying to deny something he knows is true, I think he honestly is reading the bible and truly sees what he believes as true in the Words of Scripture.

Numbers 30 is true, but many Christians have not seen things the way you do on this issue or seen Numbers 30 even applying to Christ's instructions in the New Testament. Is the bible some sort of complex puzzle that we plug in and out of or should it be read straightforward? Christ said do not divorce in Mark, with NO exceptions, so if one wanted to be totally literal than they would stick with that and it would be hard to argue with them. If Christ wanted the New Testament to apply mainly to Jew

[Smalcald]

Yes in some cases I see what you are saying about not wanting to admit when we are wrong. I also agree that God's Word is complete.

However the more I really look at what is happening in how people read scripture, the more I am convinced that honest Christians will simply never agree on some doctrine, and at the same time both claiming the same whole Word of God, this is where the Church must provide help and guidance. We need to look only as far as our own thousands of denominations all agreeing that the bible alone is the Word of God and without error; and all honestly disagreeing on many doctrines.

This example on the question of marriage and divorce and remarriage is one of those numerous cases, we are hopelessly split and we are all reading the same bible. I don't think Deut is trying to deny something he knows is true, I think he honestly is reading the bible and truly sees what he believes as true in the Words of Scripture.

Numbers 30 is true, but many Christians have not seen things the way you do on this issue or seen Numbers 30 even applying to Christ's instructions in the New Testament.

And therein lies the problem.....too many pit God against GOD fallaciously believing that because there was a change of covenants that God Himself has changed. Nothing could be more ridiculous.

Numbers 30, and many others of course, help us to understand WHO God is...HOW God sees things....and how He judges us and discerns our motivations.

Anyone who would tell me that the God who gave Numbers 30 had changed and no longer felt that way would most likely get a hefty chuckle...

If we dont apply many OT precepts then I guess no christian can argue against bestiality or many forms of incest seeing that the NT doesnt expressly cover many of those things.

Some Christians have actually asked me what Im doing in the OT....that it isnt relevant to us today. To those who would say such an ignorant thing I tell them that they have no clue because the foundation that God laid is IN the OT...where WE ARE TODAY is a direct result of that history in the OT....are we so ignorant as to foolishly believe that we dont need to understand the PAST to understand our PRESENT and our FUTURE ?

I know the WHY's of where Gods people stand today BECAUSE I can read the OT and SEE what God dealt with where the Jews were concerned...

Those who would toss out the OT quite frankly are no students of scripture. Sorry to whom that offends, but its absolutely true.

Is the bible some sort of complex puzzle that we plug in and out of or should it be read straightforward? Christ said do not divorce in Mark, with NO exceptions, so if one wanted to be totally literal than they would stick with that and it would be hard to argue with them.

And if we use this reasoning then we also see that Mark ALSO said that NO sign would be given to that generation....while Matthew recording the SAME event says that NO SIGN but the sign of Jonah....so which man would be lying if we want to play the game that way ?

>>>The REST of the story... <<<

We are to harmonize the details....not pit scripture against scripture and God against God or Jesus against His chosen apostles.

And that is where many fall short....they actually believe that Paul contradicted Christ...Ive seen them say these absurdities myself. Theyd rather make a liar of Paul than to simply admit that their doctines do not harmonize the facts as a whole....

If Christ wanted the New Testament to apply mainly to Jew

[Smalcald]

ahhhh, okay thanks. Doctrines which would say that a second marriage should be broken up because of scripture concerning what happened in the first.

Yes I agree, we cannot promote divorce now becuase of what has happened in the past sinful or not. I think there are some more specific passages in Deuteronomy that cover this very case I will see if I can find them. Now I understand better what you are saying.

The whole basis of much of our faith is about looking forward versus looking backward toward our sins which have been washed clean. If we are trapped forever in our old sins, we are all doomed.

[Guest armourup]

Hisgirl, find out for sure if the laws of your state considered you common-law married. If you were, get a divorce and you will be free to marry again. If you weren't, then there is nothing that holds you to him.

Thanks Xan. I was told once by a Christian friend that my situation is consdered married so therefore I am regarded as a divorced woman and must NOT remarry.

Well that doesn't stack up with me because God would NOT have convicted me to part ways with him and I did not make any covenant before God when I "shacked up" with him.

I have been doubtful of some of the things I have been told by some well meaning Christian women. I have had a lot more realistic answers on this Board.

There is a difference between someone living together without entering into a marriage and someone who makes a committment between themselves and God. I would suggest you seek God about the matter. Common law marriage is something the government in certain states came up with through legislation, and I am not sure that God would consider you to have been married. What I would ask you is whether or not you considered yourself married at the time? If not, I don't think you are bound forever to the man in question, but keep in mind, that is only my opinion.

OK, I have one for you. I do not hear too much counsel or teaching on this one... I think because it is not as straight forward as far as New Testament scripture is concerned.

How about separation when both husband and wife are Christians? No abuse, no adultry... just seemingly irreconcilable differences. It is of course clear that actual divorce is out of the question

but:

1. Biblically, is Separation tantamount to Divorce?

2. What are the choices for the partner who did not choose separation?

Another question. If a Christian withdraws from their spouse and admittedly places their intimacy (not physical intimacy) with another family member, is that bordering on adultry?

I know it is not adultry, but considering the dynamics, where does that fall according to God's word?

[Smalcald]

This is my opinion only.

1. I think separation is not divorce it is not final and the marriage vows still stand, separated or not. It can for some couples provide an alternative to divorce to provide a cooling off period of reflection without making that headlong jump into divorce.

2. I believe we must keep the definition of adultery clear. This is simply having a romantic/physical relationship with someone who is not your husband or wife. If we go down this path of well technically this is adultery we end up with the any excuse will do concept. People who want to get a divorce in their heart will search for any scriptural cover they can find.

I have heard people say well my wife will not have enough relations with me, thus this is a type of adultery and gee I am now free to divorce and find someone else.

This is all basically bogus, scripture is clear except in the cases of true adultery or sexual impurity, or if your spouse abandons you, you cannot break your vow to God.

If you are on the receiving end of a separation and do not want to separate I do not have a good answer. You are still married, however I think the train has probably left the station on the marriage, but I don't know and will not offer any opinions on that matter.

I think divorce questions are hard because you say the New Testament does not address all of our various situations and quandaries we get ourselves into.

[deut31:12]

Again...deut31:12

I said what the scriptures said too....will you obey or worm your way out of obeying the word you claim to believe ?

(Mat 5:42 KJV) Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

(Luk 6:30 KJV) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Im ASKING you for $1000....will you OBEY your Lord or will you make a mockery of your own poor method of study by refusing ?

I can ask you until you give me a satisfactory response, poster....are YOU exempt from OBEYING the words of Jesus Christ ?

Ill say again that ALL I see from you is the SAME exact sort of erroneous nonsense that we see from other false doctines like Prosperity fallacies who ALSO can quote a few passages that seem to say one thing but DONT mean what they claim they mean when examined in the light of the WHOLE word of God.

You pull nothing short of pharisaical deception here in demanding that everyone ELSE obey YOUR interpretation of the law while YOU YOURSELF will apparently not even obey the CLEAREST of instruction therein.

The same can be said if I asked you to jump off a building. Your posts on this matter are laughable as you do a whole lot of accusing, but have no basis supporting your view if this matter. I have given scripture that specifically states that remarriage can only take place if I put away my spouse for cheating on me and that if anybody marries those who have been put away is an adulteress. For some reason you can't, or won't, see that.

All of your accusations and analogies mean nothing.

[deut31:12]

ahhhh, okay thanks. Doctrines which would say that a second marriage should be broken up because of scripture concerning what happened in the first.

Yes I agree, we cannot promote divorce now becuase of what has happened in the past sinful or not. I think there are some more specific passages in Deuteronomy that cover this very case I will see if I can find them. Now I understand better what you are saying.

The whole basis of much of our faith is about looking forward versus looking backward toward our sins which have been washed clean. If we are trapped forever in our old sins, we are all doomed.

Romans 7:2, 3 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

This needs to be taken into consideration. Even though you are saying that the past is passed they are still biblically considered and adulterer/adulteress if they are married to another while their spouse still lives. What you will have is an adulterer/adulteress in your camp. The sin is still there and has not been repented from.

[Smalcald]

Right I know what you are saying.

However I think we need to start at the beginning and look at intent. The problem is not with the married couple but with the re-marriage itself, which if done and blessed in a Christian Church by a Christian pastor and Christian congregation could not really be considered the fault of the two people getting re-married, but a problem with the Church that blessed the marriage. What I mean is take two people who are divorced and remarried. They have been married for twenty years, they were married in a Christian Church and they honestly believed that they were okay to remarry. As Christians could they not sincerely repent of their sin? Is that not an option for them?

Given that they did repent and I mean honest repentance not planned repentance, could they not then move forward in marriage? It would seem you have nothing to say to them except that they should now divorce again?

[JCISGD]

Right I know what you are saying.

However I think we need to start at the beginning and look at intent. The problem is not with the married couple but with the re-marriage itself, which if done and blessed in a Christian Church by a Christian pastor and Christian congregation could not really be considered the fault of the two people getting re-married, but a problem with the Church that blessed the marriage. What I mean is take two people who are divorced and remarried. They have been married for twenty years, they were married in a Christian Church and they honestly believed that they were okay to remarry. As Christians could they not sincerely repent of their sin? Is that not an option for them?

Given that they did repent and I mean honest repentance not planned repentance, could they not then move forward in marriage? It would seem you have nothing to say to them except that they should now divorce again?

For a very thorough and biblical answer to the question of divorce and remarriage, google Interview dr mike gorrie and dr jim birkitt or high calling ministries auckland New Zealand, they got the low down on it all.

[kross]

I read these posts and I find it sad. Grace seems all but gone. JESUS was speaking to those under the law. Even though there are those who do not like to hear that, it is true.

We are not under the law, if we are under the shed blood of JESUS.

I understand that there are those who are taught that you must keep the law and that repent means to turn away for each and every sin that you are doing or you can not be saved. This just isn't true. This idea of some strict adherance to the law was discussed and rejected by the apostles in the book of acts wen they decided to give very simple instructions the the gentiles and not to put them under the yoke that the Jewish forefathers couldn't handle.

It is enough to put your faith in JESUS and continue to work on impovements in your walk. BUT...

We do have absolute freedom in JESUS. If someone is, in fact, indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT they will have a new nature. This will manifest in a new way of looking at the world and thier own sin and GOD. We have the law and the written words of encouragement for the purpose of telling us what the difference between us and Holiness is. We see our shortcomings and are reminded that we need a savior. We see the admonition of the LORD and the HOLY SPIRIT uses that to help us to overcome. BUT...

It is our love of GOD and our gratitude for our salvation that is the only Biblical point to repentance.

It just seems like many here are so focussed on sin and shortcomings that they can not see salvation is a gift of GOD given by grace through faith alone.

Christians are beat down enough by Satan pointing fingers without Christians joining in.

Sorry if it seems off topic, but it isn't. This time spent trying to determine the level of bondage a person who chooses to get married should be in, the level of bondage a divorced person should be in, is just so far off the mark of the gift GOD has given us. Divorce happens because of the falleness of the world. All sin happens because of the falleness of the world.

Do you really think GOD wants you to live in misery because you made a mistake? Really? IS that how you see GOD? We screw up. We correct that screw up. We move on. All is forgiven. All is made new.