Security of the Beliver.

[Mudcat]

I wanted to submit these verses from Hebrews. They are in my opinion the strongest support for those that believe we can loose our salvation.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I also wanted to submit these verses from John. Also in my opinion they are the strongest support for those who believe in the irrevocable nature of salvation.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

At first blush, there seems to be a great deal of dissonance between them.

Can they be brought into harmony?

I would be curious to know your interpretation of these two, seemingly disharmonious verses and your beliefs on the matter.

My vote will be for poll option 3, as this is the only way I seem to be able to bring the two statements together.

Perhaps I will be the only one in the option 3 category....but its what I think, so I put it there.

In short, I believe that we can reject the gift Christ has given us, if we so choose.

I plan discussing my own beliefs on the matter, more in depth, later in the thread.

It is quite possible that works, grace, sanctification among other things may be pertinent to these matters. So, if it gets off topic and onto these other things, I certainly won't consider it an effort to derail the thread.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Mudcat

[Smalcald]

I voted the same as you mudcat.

I do think we see scriptural support for a later rejection.

[Ovedya]

Are we really going down this road again?

[Smalcald]

Are we really going down this road again?

ahhhhhhhh it never endddddds.

[Smalcald]

I would just add that I do believe that the believer does have eternal security, that all of our sins past present and future are wiped clean, that we can rest in that, that there is nothing we can do to seperate us from the love of Christ.

Of course a non-believer would care not a whit about that as they don't believe any of it is true anyway I have met many non-believers who ardently claim that they once had great faith, were born again etc. So even if they didn't "really" have faith, what difference does it make? They honestly deep down believed that they were born again and had deep faith.

[Mudcat]

Are we really going down this road again?

Sounds like this is a well worn trail for you Ovedya.

Hopefully, you won't mind us traversing it once more.

My local church is Southern Baptist and my conversations in this regard have been met with strange looks, stares and accusals of heresy on my part. I was hoping that I wouldn't be the only one in my position and definitely want to see what the arguments for and against are.

I will submit, that I am not married to this belief and I am open to changing my point of view, in light of conclusive evidence to the contrary.

[Larry 2]

I will argue with no one on this subject

[EricH]

Sadly, what it typically turns into is a proof texting contest. In order to understand what the Bible teaches about any topic, we have to be willing to look at all the verses that speak to an issue. Frequently there will be verses that seem to teach different things. For example there are numerous verses that seem to teach that one cannot lose their salvation, but there are also verses that seem to teach that salvation may be lost. This is known as duality. The scriptures are full of them (Divine soveriegnty vs human responsibility, God's unity vs. His diversity etc).

The problem is that people will typically cozy up to the verses that support their position and give them more wieght than verses that challenge their position. This is a fallacy known as duality reductionalism (Making one set of verses the test by which all verses must be measured). So you end up with people really not dialogueing. They simply shoot their proof texts at each other and never really honestly address the passages that give them trouble.

This degenerates into observations being made about motives, intelligence, and spirituality to the point of being hurtful. This road has been travelled so much here that there are ruts

[Smalcald]

Once I'm saved or born of God, can I still go to hell if I mess up? Consider the following.

John 6.44. "No man can come to me (Jesus), except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 10:27-29. "My sheep (Believers in Christ) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (Notice here that we've been given to Jesus by the Father)

John 6:37-40. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Jesus won't cast us out regardless of our failures) (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Eph. 4:30. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

In the above verses, we have been given eternal life (That is God's own life without beginning or end from the moment we're born again), and Jesus says He will not let any one take us out of his hand. The Father will not let anyone take you out of His hand, and the Holy Spirit has sealed us until the day of redemption. How much more secure can we be than God telling us in His word that He is totally for us?

1 John 3:9.

[Botz]

I think it is unimportant if this thread is a well worn road, presumably those that have travelled many times before will not mind if a few others take the journey, especially as Worthyboards has a vastly fluctuating number of participants, who for one reason or another might not have not chosen until now to enter the debate. Naturally those that have come this way so often before do not have to feel obligated to participate...it is not compulsory.

On the issue of eternal salvation, I have never been able to escape the fact a birth takes place.

Nicodemus tries to unsuccessfully to relate it to a man entering its mothers womb for a second time (probably Pharasaical sarcasm because Nico was not a dimwit)

Once a person has been 'born again,' he has undergone a transformation that is permanent...his spirit is no longer dead, he has been made awake to the things of G-d, he has been translated from the Kingdom of darkness into the Kingdom of Light...he can never be the same again...G-d has become real, G-d has become his 'Abba'. It is a position of sonship that involves relationship...it is a secure position...it is a permanent position that was born out of the mercy of G-d and is fully sustained by His grace.

I have at times gone all around the circuit comparing the Scriptures that suggest eternal salvation, against those that suggest a loseable salvation, but have come full circle back to the actual act of regeneration, and believe a son or daughter of G-d is a son or daughter of G-d forever.

People talk about losing ones salvation, but that discounts the actuality of sonship..it is as though 'salvation' is some throw away commodity and careless handling will incur severe retribution... but salvation flows from the position of sonship, it does not supplant it...if you like it is a symptom/indication/benefit/sign of sonship that the Holy Ghost makes real to us.