Security of the Beliver.

[kross]

- I think people have a hate for organizations in general. The reality is that Christianity is a religion, because religion is an organized form of worship. There isn't anything wrong with religion but people have such a hate for it nowadays. I think its important to maintain repspect for eachother though, we have a bad habit of concluding someones wrong before a discussion even begins, and that not effects our ability to listen to them, but what we say to them.

- Topics like these are essential for discussion but alway's end up sour, the problem is people stop listening, and being talking at eachother and not to eachother. We should open our hearts to the Holy Ghost, and sincerley seek the truth that Christ desires each of us to know, but I strongly oppose doing so through preconcieved notions. I believe an open heart is essential to discussions like these. Merely historically speaking Religion is what has kept this world going, and is the foundation of civilization which without religion, wouldn't be where it is now. I believe we should allow the Holy Ghost to speak to our hearts, and seek Him earnestly, He will not fail to answer

God bless

There is a difference between religion and Christianity.

Religion is man's attempt to reach up to touch GOD, Christianity is GOD reaching down to man. Christiaity is not based in a list of do's and don'ts, it is based in the grace of GOD imparting saving faith to HIS people.

That is a huge difference.

Your second paragraph is right on for the most part. Sometimes, if you hear it enough, you may actually start to see it in the scriptures, particularly if you are basing a belief on what you have been told and a mis-interpretation of the written word. Although, sometimes it is like talking to a wall.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think people have a hate for organizations in general. The reality is that Christianity is a religion, because religion is an organized form of worship. There isn't anything wrong with religion but people have such a hate for it nowadays.

When I use the term "religion" am not referring to organized religion. I am referring to a spirit or an attitude that binds people up to a system where man is placed under grinding pressure to earn God's favor. That is what I hate, and that is what is at the heart of a belief that says my salvation depends on my personal holiness, and depends on my ability to remain obedient and pure. It completely defeats the sacrifice on the cross and makes me responsibile for insuring my eternal future.

[larryt]

Hi Mudcat,

I would be more than willing to discuss the issue with you. I will try to stay on point if you will do the same.

The security of the believer hinges entirely on the who is the object of faith. If I am trusting Jesus for EVERYTHING, and I do mean everything then I am secure. If I am trusting in myself to maintain my salvation then I am bound to lose it.

The 2 passages above can be harmonized, IMHO. It is late now so I will try to get back asap.

LT

Hi Larry,

I look forward to it and will make every effort to keep it on track.

Before we get into it, to much though. I did want to take a moment to apologize to you.

I was rereading a previous thread, and realized I was a little snarky with you... and undeservedly so, once or twice.

I hope you will forgive me?

Mudcat

Hi Mudcat,

Thank you for your reply. Accepted. I am going to try to focus on just our discussion, I do not want to get sidetracked, as I have not the time to spend much on the internet these days.

The first passage is one of the most misunderstood in the whole bible. And I am not one to say I have a lock on the understanding by any means. I have read many commentaries and even in them, assumptions are made that IMHO cannot be made. If I can I will try to give you my analysis of this passage in Hebrews first.

The scope of the book of Hebrews, if I might quote Matthew Henry is:

As to the scope and design of this epistle, it is very evident that it was clearly to inform the minds, and strongly to confirm the judgment, of the Hebrews in the transcendent excellency of the gospel above the law, and so to take them off from the ceremonies of the law, to which they were so wedded, of which they were so fond, that they even doted on them, and those of them who were Christians retained too much of the old leaven, and needed to be purged from it. The design of this epistle was to persuade and press the believing Hebrews to a constant adherence to the Christian faith, and perseverance in it, notwithstanding all the sufferings they might meet with in so doing. In order to this, the apostle speaks much of the excellency of the author of the gospel, the glorious Jesus, whose honour he advances, and whom he justly prefers before all others, showing him to be all in all, and this in lofty strains of holy rhetoric. It must be acknowledged that there are many things in this epistle hard to be understood, but the sweetness we shall find therein will make us abundant amends for all the pains we take to understand it. And indeed, if we compare all the epistles of the New Testament, we shall not find any of them more replenished with divine, heavenly matter than this to the Hebrews.

The highlighted part I think needs to be kept in mind as we look at this passage in particular.

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I see 2 possible, opposite understandings for who it is that is referred to in the passage above.

On the one hand, it is referring to the possibility of believers falling away; and on the other it is referring to false believers that never were "born again" but had all the appearances of true believers.

First remember that this is address to primarily Hebrew Christians though it is applicable to all Christians. The question that can be asked at this point is: Where all OT Hebrews saved? I don't think so. Yet they all had light, tasted of the heavenly gift, partook of the Holy Spirit, tasted of the good Word of God, and the power of the world to come, "in a sense." In the NT, Judas would fall into this category, yet Jesus said specifically that He was a devil.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas went out with the other eleven and even did miracles. Was he saved? I don't think so.

I think there is evidence to support the premise that these are false believers.

I also think that there is enough evidence to support the premise that these are believers. That does not mean that we can assume that they will in fact loose their salvation though.

I think this passage is a hypothetical question. Hypothetical questions are made to make a point. Let me explain.

In Heb. 5 the author is talking about the Priesthood of Christ and His suffering. He wants to go on to deeper meaning but the hearers are "dull of hearing" and need to be retaught the first principles. So what are the first principles? In Heb. 6:1-3 there are several mentioned: repentance, faith, ordinances, prophecy. Then in vs. 4-6 one of the most important first principles is that Christ only died once for the sins of His people. The emphasis is not falling away but Christ dying only once.

Look at the passage without the parenthetical thought.

For it is impossible......If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is repeated and elaborated on in the rest of Hebrews.

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people

[Guest shiloh357]

I have never heard of a theological system within Christianity claim that salvation is dependent upon their personal holiness or their ability to remain obedient and pure.

It is a belief called "covenental nomism" It is the belief that one is initially saved by faith but that works are necessary in order for salvation to be maintained. In this view, your good works are necessary to secure salvation. Ultimately, it makes the person and NOT Christ ultimately responsible for their salvation.

[Botz]

I have never heard of a theological system within Christianity claim that salvation is dependent upon their personal holiness or their ability to remain obedient and pure.

It is a belief called "covenental nomism" It is the belief that one is initially saved by faith but that works are necessary in order for salvation to be maintained. In this view, your good works are necessary to secure salvation. Ultimately, it makes the person and NOT Christ ultimately responsible for their salvation.

Hmmm Is that the same as believing your sonship can only be maintained by acting like a son?

[Guest]

Taste

"O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him." Psalms 34:8

And Eat

"Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts." Jeremiah 15:16

Trust

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Proverbs 3:5-7

And Shout

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Jesus Is Who It's All About

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 1:24-25

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

"The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace."

"And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them." Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." Joel 2:32

[Rick-Parker]

I have never heard of a theological system within Christianity claim that salvation is dependent upon their personal holiness or their ability to remain obedient and pure.

It is a belief called "covenental nomism" It is the belief that one is initially saved by faith but that works are necessary in order for salvation to be maintained. In this view, your good works are necessary to secure salvation. Ultimately, it makes the person and NOT Christ ultimately responsible for their salvation.

Sounds like Catholicism to me.

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't believe that our good works maintain our salvation, that again is something unfamiliar to me.

are you aware of the various theological views that exist within the pale of orthodox Christianity?

I'm also unfamiliar with the term 'convental nomism', I believe the system of faith that I presented above is the system that the Scriptures teach.

Right... the point is that there are evidently a lot of theological views that you aren't familiar with, and many who hold these views are as equally convinced that their views are what the scriptures teach.

My personal position is that good works are what what prove the authenticity of our profession of faith and are not the means of either procuring or maintatining salvation.

[Rick-Parker]

I don't believe that our good works maintain our salvation, that again is something unfamiliar to me.

are you aware of the various theological views that exist within the pale of orthodox Christianity?

I'm also unfamiliar with the term 'convental nomism', I believe the system of faith that I presented above is the system that the Scriptures teach.

Right... the point is that there are evidently a lot of theological views that you aren't familiar with, and many who hold these views are as equally convinced that their views are what the scriptures teach.

My personal position is that good works are what what prove the authenticity of our profession of faith and are not the means of either procuring or maintatining salvation.

And I totally agree with you, Shiloh.

[Mudcat]

Larry T,

Hi Mudcat,

Thank you for your reply. Accepted. I am going to try to focus on just our discussion, I do not want to get sidetracked, as I have not the time to spend much on the internet these days.

The first passage is one of the most misunderstood in the whole bible. And I am not one to say I have a lock on the understanding by any means. I have read many commentaries and even in them, assumptions are made that IMHO cannot be made. If I can I will try to give you my analysis of this passage in Hebrews first.

The scope of the book of Hebrews, if I might quote Matthew Henry is:

As to the scope and design of this epistle, it is very evident that it was clearly to inform the minds, and strongly to confirm the judgment, of the Hebrews in the transcendent excellency of the gospel above the law, and so to take them off from the ceremonies of the law, to which they were so wedded, of which they were so fond, that they even doted on them, and those of them who were Christians retained too much of the old leaven, and needed to be purged from it. The design of this epistle was to persuade and press the believing Hebrews to a constant adherence to the Christian faith, and perseverance in it, notwithstanding all the sufferings they might meet with in so doing. In order to this, the apostle speaks much of the excellency of the author of the gospel, the glorious Jesus, whose honour he advances, and whom he justly prefers before all others, showing him to be all in all, and this in lofty strains of holy rhetoric. It must be acknowledged that there are many things in this epistle hard to be understood, but the sweetness we shall find therein will make us abundant amends for all the pains we take to understand it. And indeed, if we compare all the epistles of the New Testament, we shall not find any of them more replenished with divine, heavenly matter than this to the Hebrews.

The highlighted part I think needs to be kept in mind as we look at this passage in particular.

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I see 2 possible, opposite understandings for who it is that is referred to in the passage above.

On the one hand, it is referring to the possibility of believers falling away; and on the other it is referring to false believers that never were "born again" but had all the appearances of true believers.

First remember that this is address to primarily Hebrew Christians though it is applicable to all Christians. The question that can be asked at this point is: Where all OT Hebrews saved? I don't think so. Yet they all had light, tasted of the heavenly gift, partook of the Holy Spirit, tasted of the good Word of God, and the power of the world to come, "in a sense." In the NT, Judas would fall into this category, yet Jesus said specifically that He was a devil.

Emphasis mine, and I appreciate the thoughtful response.

I suppose I have wrestled with the verses in Hebrews cited above for a while now.

My background and previous teachings in the Gospel have been entirely supportive of the OSAS doctrine. It has only been fairly recently that I have changed that position.

At the time that I was looking at it, from that direction. It was my conclusion that the people being spoken of were those who had been put under the weight of conviction by the Holy Spirit and had rejected the calling to repentance and salvation.

I suppose after further examination, I realized that many are called by the message of the Gospel. Many don't answer the first time, either. There is no telling how many people have rejected Christ out of pride, more than once, to later come and know Christ. And I truly believe there is a point in which he stops calling and unbeliever and gives them over to their sin.... There is other scriptural support for that concept and it was there that I put these verses.

However, this really didn't 'fix' things for me. These verses were still bothering me. There was something I was missing there.

My thought is that these verses aren't addressing those whom God ceases to call. The reason being, is that the verses don't seem to be addressing that group. One of the key portions that made it troubling had to do with the words "renew them again unto repentance". The word renew, is a distinct implication to being made new, reborn.... what have you.

These verses apparently seem to be addressing those who were 'renewed' before. The realization changed the whole playing field in regards to that particular doctrine for me.

I suppose I have, at present, stopped trying to squeeze those verses into what I already believe, but rather let those verses taken at face value be part of what I believe.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Judas went out with the other eleven and even did miracles. Was he saved? I don't think so.

Was Judas saved would be a thread worthy topic by itself. (hint hint Larry) But, unless you feel that it would bring relevance to the table. I won't address it now.

I think there is evidence to support the premise that these are false believers.

No doubt, we find agreement here. I just can't use Hebrews 6:4-6 to support that specific thought.

I also think that there is enough evidence to support the premise that these are believers. That does not mean that we can assume that they will in fact loose their salvation though.

Now that is an interesting twist and I mean that sincerely. I am hoping you could discuss your thoughts on this track further. This seems to be worth fleshing out. Can one fall away and still retain salvation.......

I think this passage is a hypothetical question. Hypothetical questions are made to make a point. Let me explain.

In Heb. 5 the author is talking about the Priesthood of Christ and His suffering. He wants to go on to deeper meaning but the hearers are "dull of hearing" and need to be retaught the first principles. So what are the first principles? In Heb. 6:1-3 there are several mentioned: repentance, faith, ordinances, prophecy. Then in vs. 4-6 one of the most important first principles is that Christ only died once for the sins of His people. The emphasis is not falling away but Christ dying only once.

Look at the passage without the parenthetical thought.

For it is impossible......If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is repeated and elaborated on in the rest of Hebrews.

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

I am leery of this (parenthetical) premise. I will grant you, that if it were written that way, it would definitely change things. However, I think we'd be better served dealing with the text (minus () insertions) at hand.

The way I see it this can be talking about believers or non-believers, but I do not see a loss of salvation here. I lean toward the.... I won't say at this time.

LT

I am curious to see what your thoughts are.

Again, thanks for a well thought response.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

Edited October 6, 2008 by Mudcat