Perfect Human

[BobTriez]

We sure have changed the topic of this thread haven't we ? No worries...it was your thread to start with .....

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EDIT to add your edit ~

One question, what do you mean by too close to Jesus' time on Earth for a lie that big to have fabricated....?

What I mean is, there were too many eye witnesses around for a lie to propagate. Consider the feeding of the 5,000....if that miracle never happened, someone would have gone around refuting such claims when the Gospels were being written. But oddly ( or not ? ), not one word of denial took place. It would be like you writing a book on the war in Iraq and a bunch of people start hounding you for writing fiction....this is all contemporary events. It's not disputed that a war is going on [ in Iraq ]....it's simply common knowledge. Make sense ?

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Anyway.....I think a large element here has to deal with faith ( I'm fairly certain you are aware of that though ).....what I'm getting at here, is why faith in one religion and not others. I'm going to sum that question up in one simple sentence -

It's not about me, and it's not about you.....it's about the glory of God

See, no other religion puts any emphasis on what God has done for man 100 % ( which comes full circle to man praising God for what He's done ). Do you see what I'm saying ? There is on thing that stands out in Christianity that no other religion teaches.....and that is salvation by grace alone. Every other religion, man must work to some degree for his salvation....not so in Christianity. That's what really catches my attention. Why ? Because to me, that is the epitome of love. God loves us so much that he saw us in our completely helpless state and was willing to die for the human race. And then hand out this free gift called salvation. In previous posts you stated that God is cruel and heartless for damning someone for all eternity - but if you look at the big picture, everything about God is love and this whole concept of salvation by grace alone only exemplifies His love for humanity.

You keep asking ( and it's a valid question ) " How do you know ? Where is your proof ". Well, the proof is in my heart. The Bible teaches us that God now lives in us -

1 Corinthians 6:19-20

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God

[Osiris]

We sure have changed the topic of this thread haven't we ?  No worries...it was your thread to start with .....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT to add your edit ~

One question, what do you mean by too close to Jesus' time on Earth for a lie that big to have fabricated....?

What I mean is, there were too many eye witnesses around for a lie to propagate. Consider the feeding of the 5,000....if that miracle never happened, someone would have gone around refuting such claims when the Gospels were being written. But oddly ( or not ? ), not one word of denial took place. It would be like you writing a book on the war in Iraq and a bunch of people start hounding you for writing fiction....this is all contemporary events. It's not disputed that a war is going on [ in Iraq ]....it's simply common knowledge. Make sense ?

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People back then did not have means to communicating so rapidly as we do now. So comparing me writing fictious book on iraq today is not the same as writing a fictious book 2000 years ago. Also keep in mind that the gospels were not written while Jesus was alive, they were written years after.

So, if they write that a man fed 5,000 of people with 5 loaves of bread and 5 fish(let's just say this didn't happen), how will the people disprove that? They might as well think that they were just one of the people that weren't there within that multitude or that they were not born yet.

Also, are there any denials of Christmas not being the real birthdate of Jesus from someone from the early years?

Anyway.....I think a large element here has to deal with faith ( I'm fairly certain you are aware of that though   ).....what I'm getting at here, is why faith in one religion and not others.  I'm going to sum that question up in one simple sentence -

Okie dokie... but one thing though, what is the difference between "having faith on something" and "assuming something"? Sometimes I think there is no difference.

It's not about me, and it's not about you.....it's about the glory of God

See, no other religion puts any emphasis on what God has done for man 100 % ( which comes full circle to man praising God for what He's done ).  Do you see what I'm saying ?  There is on thing that stands out in Christianity that no other religion teaches.....and that is salvation by grace alone.  Every other religion, man must work to some degree for his salvation....not so in Christianity.  That's what really catches my attention.  Why ?  Because to me, that is the epitome of love.  God loves us so much that he saw us in our completely helpless state and was willing to die for the human race.  And then hand out this free gift called salvation.  In previous posts you stated that God is cruel and heartless for damning someone for all eternity - but if you look at the big picture, everything about God is love and this whole concept of salvation by grace alone only exemplifies His love for humanity.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I still cannot go with this, the reason is because what you have here is this.

A's claim is true because A is tall.

A's claim is true because A runs fast.

A's claim is true because A is really good in geometry.

A's claim is true because A is kind and cares.

Being tall, fast, good in geometry or caring is irrelevant to A's claim being true or not.

You keep asking ( and it's a valid question ) " How do you know ?  Where is your proof ".  Well, the proof is in my heart.  The Bible teaches us that God now lives in us -

Jehova's Witness and Mormons also teach that their proof is in their heart and that they are one true religion (well, at least the JW). You see, feelings don't always tell the truth and this would be no different than:

A's claim is true because I have a feeling A's claim is true.

A's claim is true because alot of people think A's claim is true.

These two premises are irrelevant for A's claim being true.

Show me any other religion that their god desires such an intimate relationship.  You and me are looking at opposite sides of the coin here.  You see the wrath side of God - which He certainly has.  That's why you bring up things like God killing ( the Flood ).  I look at God as pure love.....why ?  Because I have nothing to fear now.  Jesus took that wrath upon Himself and now all that's left is love.

One of the reasons I am an unbeliever is because of this, absolute love and the concept of Hell cannot coexist. If someone is infinitely forgiving and has infinite love and creates Hell, then that someone is not infinitely forgiving and does not have infinite love.

Can I prove to you that God exists ?  Not in a clear, tangible way, no.  But I know He is real because He lives inside of me. And my desire is that when people look at me or read what I've said in this case, I want people to look and say " there is something different about him....I'm not sure what, but he's different "  So when you look at me, my life should be a testimony to the fact the He does indeed live.

I understand and repect that Bob, I appreciate your devotion and I think that you are different; if you were like eric you would have told me to get a life by now.

But you see, I think you know already what I am going to say by now, and I am sorry for thinking this way. You living a good life is irrelevant if God does in fact exist.

I wanted to leave you with these thoughts.  I sincerely urge you to give faith a shot.  Once He's within you, it's like a switch is flipped.  All those illogical inconsistencies you once perceived disappear.

Do I have doubts ?  Sure....everyone does and they'd be a liar if they said differently.  But when I seek Him through His Word, or through all the beautiful things He's created, all that doubt is transformed into even greater faith.  Have you ever considered asking God for help ?  The Bible says in John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

God didn't leave things too ambiguous....yes, faith is absolutely required, but seek Him out, put the pieces together &  as the psalmist says in Psalm 34:8 - Taste and see that the LORD is good;

I do wish a loving God existed, I am not saying I don't. I do wish I had a chance to live for eternity. But me wishing it is irrelevant for those things being true. I did have faith before, but what I see now that it was just an assumption buried within feelings which was hard to dig out. And if I would want to give faith a shot again, , I'll be just pretending. So, being an agnostic/atheist is what I can honestly live with and can't help it. I don't have a choice in this matter.

But I could be wrong, and if I am wrong, I think it wouldn't be my fault for believing in such way, just like it wasn't people's fault in the year 100 to believe the earth was flat. And I wouldn't think a loving God would punish me for that.

[BobTriez]

People back then did not have means to communicating so rapidly as we do now. So comparing me writing fictious book on iraq today is not the same as writing a fictious book 2000 years ago. Also keep in mind that the gospels were not written while Jesus was alive, they were written years after.

Yes I am aware of that, but John was the last Gospel to be written, and that was c.70 A.D ( off memory, so it might not be exact ) My point is, there is not a long span of time for stories to be made up and embellished.

So, if they write that a man fed 5,000 of people with 5 loaves of bread and 5 fish(let's just say this didn't happen), how will the people disprove that?

I would think something of this nature would be more towards "prove it did happen" wouldn't you ? This would be an outrageous story and the burden of proof would be on those who say it happened, not those who deny it happened....yet there was no one who stepped to the plate and questioned this miraculous event.

Also, are there any denials of Christmas not being the real birth date of Jesus from someone from the early years?

You mean our celebration date of Dec. 25 ? I'm not an expert on the climate of that area, but from what I understand, His birthday would not have been in the winter due to things like shepherds attending their flocks. I don't think there are any Christian historians that believe Dec. 25 was His birthday as it's not mentioned in the Bible.

But you see, I think you know already what I am going to say by now, and I am sorry for thinking this way. You living a good life is irrelevant if God does in fact exist

I'm not sure I follow what you mean here...I'll wait for clarification before I attempt to respond as there are several ways I could interpret that ( and please be honest with whatever you mean....it won't offend me

I do wish a loving God existed, I am not saying I don't. I do wish I had a chance to live for eternity. But me wishing it is irrelevant for those things being true. I did have faith before, but what I see now that it was just an assumption buried within feelings which was hard to dig out. And if I would want to give faith a shot again, , I'll be just pretending. So, being an agnostic/atheist is what I can honestly live with and can't help it. I don't have a choice in this matter.

But I could be wrong, and if I am wrong, I think it wouldn't be my fault for believing in such way, just like it wasn't people's fault in the year 100 to believe the earth was flat. And I wouldn't think a loving God would punish me for that.

You do have a chance to live for eternity, in fact everyone will live for eternity.....but it's your choice on where you will spend eternity. If you reject Christ, then you will spend eternity where you desire to be - away from God. That is hell - eternal separation from God. If you accept Jesus, then you will spend eternity with Him. That is what Heaven will be.

Let me clear up this "loving God" misconception many folks have. They say "a loving God wouldn't send me to hell because I question His existence " or whatever....God is loving, but He is also just. When man sinned, He couldn't simply annihilate him, because that would not be justice. Man must pay for being a sinner and God can not overlook that. But, God recognized that even if man spent eternity in hell, it still wouldn't be enough to pay the penalty that our rebellion deserves, so Jesus died and took the punishment in our place. God's justice for man's sins has now been reconciled. So now you do have a choice - do you 1.) want to ignore God's offer and end up away from God for all eternity ( which we all deserve remember ) or 2.) do you want to recognize that there is nothing you can do to save yourself, accept God's free offer of salvation, and live for eternity with God ? Remember this well - we all deserve hell....every single one of us. And if God decided He didn't want to send Jesus to die, He would have been perfectly within His rights to do so ( as far as justice is concerned ) and we would have no reason to tell God He was unfair.

When David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and having Uriah murdered, he responded by saying something interesting:

[artsylady]

What prophesies from the koran?

Most athiests did at one time believe in God. You're a statistic, did you know that?

What hurt you to turn your back on God? Was it a Christian?

[Osiris]

People back then did not have means to communicating so rapidly as we do now. So comparing me writing fictious book on iraq today is not the same as writing a fictious book 2000 years ago. Also keep in mind that the gospels were not written while Jesus was alive, they were written years after.

Yes I am aware of that, but John was the last Gospel to be written, and that was c.70 A.D ( off memory, so it might not be exact ) My point is, there is not a long span of time for stories to be made up and embellished.

So what is a good span of time for stories to be made up and embellished?

So, if they write that a man fed 5,000 of people with 5 loaves of bread and 5 fish(let's just say this didn't happen), how will the people disprove that?

I would think something of this nature would be more towards "prove it did happen" wouldn't you ? This would be an outrageous story and the burden of proof would be on those who say it happened, not those who deny it happened....yet there was no one who stepped to the plate and questioned this miraculous event.

I doubt it, with christianity telling his followers "blessed are those who believed without seeing", I don't think all people reading the gospels would ask, "prove it did happen."

Also, are there any denials of Christmas not being the real birth date of Jesus from someone from the early years?

You mean our celebration date of Dec. 25 ? I'm not an expert on the climate of that area, but from what I understand, His birthday would not have been in the winter due to things like shepherds attending their flocks. I don't think there are any Christian historians that believe Dec. 25 was His birthday as it's not mentioned in the Bible.

Well, I didn't mean to say that the bible claimed Dec 25th was Jesus' birthday. What I was trying to demonstrate was that people back then would not say "prove it did happen" to such claims, even if they were false such as Jesus' birthday being on Dec 25th.

Note: I'm not trying to prove that just because christmas is that way, the bible must be that way too. What I feel is that it is just as probable.

But you see, I think you know already what I am going to say by now, and I am sorry for thinking this way. You living a good life is irrelevant if God does in fact exist

I'm not sure I follow what you mean here...I'll wait for clarification before I attempt to respond as there are several ways I could interpret that ( and please be honest with whatever you mean....it won't offend me

What I meant was that, if a person like you, leads a good life, works hard for their beliefs-- this does not have anything to do with proving God exists or not.

I do wish a loving God existed, I am not saying I don't. I do wish I had a chance to live for eternity. But me wishing it is irrelevant for those things being true. I did have faith before, but what I see now that it was just an assumption buried within feelings which was hard to dig out. And if I would want to give faith a shot again, , I'll be just pretending. So, being an agnostic/atheist is what I can honestly live with and can't help it. I don't have a choice in this matter.

But I could be wrong, and if I am wrong, I think it wouldn't be my fault for believing in such way, just like it wasn't people's fault in the year 100 to believe the earth was flat. And I wouldn't think a loving God would punish me for that.

You do have a chance to live for eternity, in fact everyone will live for eternity.....but it's your choice on where you will spend eternity. If you reject Christ, then you will spend eternity where you desire to be - away from God. That is hell - eternal separation from God. If you accept Jesus, then you will spend eternity with Him. That is what Heaven will be.

Let me clear up this "loving God" misconception many folks have. They say "a loving God wouldn't send me to hell because I question His existence " or whatever....God is loving, but He is also just. When man sinned, He couldn't simply annihilate him, because that would not be justice. Man must pay for being a sinner and God can not overlook that.

Well, I don't remember doing anything that condemned me to become a sinner. If God is condeming me because Adam sinned, then that is not real justice. If God is not condeming me, but I am condemned because I have inherited sin. Then, what is sin and is there proof that sin exists?

But, God recognized that even if man spent eternity in hell, it still wouldn't be enough to pay the penalty that our rebellion deserves, so Jesus died and took the punishment in our place.

Infinite punishment for a finite crime? Doesn't sound too fair to me.

God's justice for man's sins has now been reconciled.  So now you do have a choice - do you 1.) want to ignore God's offer and end up away from God for all eternity ( which we all deserve remember ) or 2.) do you want to recognize that there is nothing you can do to save yourself, accept God's free offer of salvation, and live for eternity with God ?  Remember this well - we all deserve hell....every single one of us.  And if God decided He didn't want to send Jesus to die, He would have been perfectly within His rights to do so ( as far as justice is concerned ) and we would have no reason to tell God He was unfair.

We don't have a choice.

I can't choose to believe, you cannot choose to disbelieve on our on behalf.

Only if something comes along that makes us think other wise.

Hang in there Osiris....you are searching for a reason.  I'm praying that you will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus and I'd love to meet you in Heaven someday.  You seem to be honest and sincere with your doubts and I respect you for that...and I also appreciate the fact that you are not constantly slamming Christianity like some are in the habit of doing.  You state you are agnostic/atheist....and you are respectable about being one and I thank you for that

In His service,

Bob

Thank you Bob, sorry if these answers seem kind of short, I am writing this in a hurry because I have to go somewhere soon. I will be back in an hour though...

[BobTriez]

So what is a good span of time for stories to be made up and embellished?

I have no idea Osiris. That is way to subjective for me to even speculate. I'm not sure it's really relevant though. If someone wants to make up a story, they will. It's getting people to believe their story that would have a greater impact, IMHO.

I doubt it, with christianity telling his followers "blessed are those who believed without seeing", I don't think all people reading the gospels would ask, "prove it did happen."

Christians are not a group of crazy, blind faith, Bible wielding, " I need no proof " type people ( I know you never said nor implied this )....we have struggles, disbeliefs, hardships, etc. I've raised many of the same doubts you do, and I know most if not all Christians will agree with me on this. I've cried " Where are you ?" to the Lord before...I've said " How can I know for sure " myself....God understands this, but that is NOT what we will be judged on. I will be judged of Jesus' lifestyle; His perfection. When I'm called up to be judged, Jesus will get up and stand in my place so instead of my rap sheet being read, the charge will be - "there's nothing on Bob's record - he is innocent ".

What I meant was that, if a person like you, leads a good life, works hard for their beliefs-- this does not have anything to do with proving God exists or not

Are you sure ? You already said a few posts back that you can see that there's something different about me....and I take that as one of the best things someone can say - because that means Christ is shining through me. My life is a testimony to my God. When people look at me, I want them to see a reflection of Jesus in me. Actions truly speak louder than words at times.

Well, I don't remember doing anything that condemned me to become a sinner

One sin is all it takes. Have you ever lied ? Cursed ? Stole something ? ( you get the point ). That's all it takes to become cast from God's sight.

If God is condemning me because Adam sinned, then that is not real justice. If God is not condemning me, but I am condemned because I have inherited sin. Then, what is sin and is there proof that sin exists?

At this stage in your life, that argument is moot. You have sinned, so whether or not you are condemned for Adam's mistake ( original sin ) is no longer relevant.

Infinite punishment for a finite crime? Doesn't sound too fair to me.

God is perfect and holy and any infraction requires that we are separated from God ( I'm trying to get that through to you - that's what hell will be; eternal separation from God ). It wouldn't be fair ( just ) if God didn't give you an eternal sentence. That's the whole reason Jesus is our sacrifice....to meet that just demand.

Thank you Bob, sorry if these answers seem kind of short, I am writing this in a hurry because I have to go somewhere soon. I will be back in an hour though...

No problem....we all have lives to live. We don't have to be standing by every waking minute to see if there's a new post to respond to I'm not going to be on too much longer tonight myself, so understand. I would like to keep this going though ( if that is what you want of course )....been great talking so far

In His service,

Bob

[Osiris]

So what is a good span of time for stories to be made up and embellished?

I have no idea Osiris. That is way to subjective for me to even speculate. I'm not sure it's really relevant though. If someone wants to make up a story, they will. It's getting people to believe their story that would have a greater impact, IMHO.

I agree, so one cannot fully say that it is not possible for such story to be believed because there is a certain possibility.

I doubt it, with christianity telling his followers "blessed are those who believed without seeing", I don't think all people reading the gospels would ask, "prove it did happen."

Christians are not a group of crazy, blind faith, Bible wielding, " I need no proof " type people ( I know you never said nor implied this )....we have struggles, disbeliefs, hardships, etc. I've raised many of the same doubts you do, and I know most if not all Christians will agree with me on this. I've cried " Where are you ?" to the Lord before...I've said " How can I know for sure " myself....God understands this, but that is NOT what we will be judged on. I will be judged of Jesus' lifestyle; His perfection. When I'm called up to be judged, Jesus will get up and stand in my place so instead of my rap sheet being read, the charge will be - "there's nothing on Bob's record - he is innocent ".

I understand what you mean, I use to believe the same way before, but now I cannot logicaly accept this anymore ; not even if I tried. The sentence above seems to me more like psychological manipulation than evidence(I am not saying that they were your intentions). The reason is that I don't believe in God, I need proof for him, then in your last sentences, God manages to come into the picture without any proof of his existance assumed to be true that he exists. So, if I were to believe this even when I said that I wanted proof, I would only have been psychologicly deluded.

If I have doubts that God exists, I would have doubts also on his judgement for his judgement can only be true if God is true.

What I meant was that, if a person like you, leads a good life, works hard for their beliefs-- this does not have anything to do with proving God exists or not

Are you sure ? You already said a few posts back that you can see that there's something different about me....and I take that as one of the best things someone can say - because that means Christ is shining through me. My life is a testimony to my God. When people look at me, I want them to see a reflection of Jesus in me. Actions truly speak louder than words at times.

I don't see that as proof, the only proof that I see is that BobTriez is a good person.

If you were to say that who you are and what you do means that God exists.

I can also claim that I've seen a young man around my neighborhood, and who he is and what he does is evidence that God does not exist.

Well, I don't remember doing anything that condemned me to become a sinner

One sin is all it takes. Have you ever lied ? Cursed ? Stole something ? ( you get the point ). That's all it takes to become cast from God's sight.

Remember.

I was born a sinner, therefore I sin.

I was never perfect, then sinned, therefore I am a sinner.

It's like punishing a person A that has mental problems because he has hard time learning math. It wasn't A's fault that he was born that way.

If God is condemning me because Adam sinned, then that is not real justice. If God is not condemning me, but I am condemned because I have inherited sin. Then, what is sin and is there proof that sin exists?

At this stage in your life, that argument is moot. You have sinned, so whether or not you are condemned for Adam's mistake ( original sin ) is no longer relevant.

I believe it is not moot, God is punishing a person with mental problems because he was born without intelligence.

Infinite punishment for a finite crime? Doesn't sound too fair to me.

God is perfect and holy and any infraction requires that we are separated from God ( I'm trying to get that through to you - that's what hell will be; eternal separation from God ).

I have heard about this, but I don't see this as something that a loving God would do, it comes to me more like arrogance. God detesting beings because of ignorance in which they could not guess which God was correct.

It wouldn't be fair ( just ) if God didn't give you an eternal sentence. That's the whole reason Jesus is our sacrifice....to meet that just demand.

I don't think is what what fair is.

Being fair and just would not condem infinite turtore for stealing an apple.

Being fair and just would not condem infinite turtore for not having a favorable opinion on something.

If ants could talk and had feelings like humans, and I had love and care towards them; if some of them were not able to see me and didn't think that I existed, I would try my best so that ant could think other wise. If other ants started calling me names, "Osiris you are stupid!" I would not step on them, what would that proove?

....been great talking so far

Yes, I feel the same way.

[AllforJesustheLord]

If Adam and Eve were incapable of sinning, why then did they sin? And since they sinned, where they really perfect?

Thoughts?

They were made in the image of God, and thus they are perfect, they are just like God. Which means something.

[Osiris]

If Adam and  Eve were incapable of sinning, why then did they sin? And since they sinned, where they really perfect?

Thoughts?

They were made in the image of God, and thus they are perfect, they are just like God. Which means something.

What does being "made in the image of God" mean?

And if they were really perfect(just like God), why did Adam sin? (Perfect is perfect does)

[AllforJesustheLord]

If Adam and