What is atheism?

[Guest HIS girl]

I don't think of my heart as having been hardened. You may have believed in Santa as a child, you certainly don't believe any longer, but you would never think of this loss of belief as having resulted from your heart being hardened against Santa Claus. Rather you will view this loss of belief as the result of an increase in knowledge and a better understanding of the world. This is how I view my loss of faith. I see it as having come from a growth of awarness and a better understanding of the world.

"a better understanding of the world." - do you mean a better undertanding of you and your position in this world, or a better understanding of how the world came into existence or just a better knowledge of how the world(natural and societies) operates in a general sense?

I have moved beyond the point of wanting to regain my faith. I believe I have the answers I was seeking.

I started out two years ago at an atheist board hoping to chat with Christians. Very few spent much time there because of the verbal abuse they suffered. When I went to the defence of one individual the vitriol was turned on me and though it was only a small number who were responsible it spoiled the experience and so I left. I went to the Dawkins Forum after that but the new problem was that the number of Christians was few, rather like the number of nonbelievers here, and my questions, due to sheer volume, were not getting answered.

There seems to be some confusion here for me - correct me if I'm wrong, but would it be safe to say that you DON'T have all the answers yet? You are atheist but are drawn to Christian sites for discussion and wanting questions answered - you go there/here just for friendly chats or for something meatier with a yearning to have unfinished business resolved?

I don't think you realise that you still have MANY questions floating around in your head - unanswered...to me it is obvious you still search for Truth in a World where Truth is elusive and blurred..

I will pray for you if you don't mind..

I don't mind at all.

You say you are atheist and you don't mind me praying for you. Wouldn't an atheist mindset think prayer is a waste of time and for me to pray for you is pointless and unnecessary as nothing I do will change your position of reasoning and outlook of the world and your place in it?

To me your heart is still soft for God even if you won't admit it.

And yes, I will pray.

[Guest HIS girl]

A lot of things come into play. I have solidified my understanding of my place in the world. I believe I know how the world came into existence -- like the other planets and the Sun it coalesced from an interstellar cloud. Also I have a general understanding of how the world works, in a physical sense -- tectonic plates and all the rest.

Does your view actually give room for the essence of the word "existence"? How do planets simply form of their own accord? Please explain.

I do have questions that pertain to religion, but they are all secular in nature. Is there any particular question that you think I might not have answered to my satisfaction?

I'm just worried that you are trying to fit secular logic to Spiritual answers...It doesn't work - And you won't make sense of it...

Yes, but if you want to pray I think it may comfort you. You will feel that you are doing something worthwhile. It won't have any bearing in my personal life, but I think it is a friendly jesture and I am appreciative for that reason.

So you think prayer is more beneficial for the one who is praying?

I was raised with a Christian belief and so have almost no interest in Islam, but I am interested in the history of Judaism and its historical influence on Christianity. I am particularly interested in history and this may be the reason for my strong interest in genealogy and social history. I am also interested in the historical origins of Christianity. I am interested in truth and possess and insatiable curiosity,

I can relate to all that - I am interested in Egyptology but I am in no way drawn to the occult....however you are drawn to the Truth but when confronted with it - you reject it? How open are you to seeking the Truth?

but I have no sense that God is more than a human invention.

That staggers me considering your Christian background - I feel sadness for you...

And yes, I will pray.

I shan't protest.

So be it!!

[Guest HIS girl]

Does your view actually give room for the essence of the word "existence"?

What I mean is can something "self exist".....without it being made by something else....and you would have learned in your growing up years with Christianity that yes, only of one case did that happen ...God.

There are better sources to get an answer from than me. I've been interested in astronomy for a long time. I've attended meetings of our local astronomy club, lectured in astronomy (to the public), and studied astronomy at university, but it was never my major, just a major passion. I am not sure why you asked me about planet formation but I decided to tell you a bit about myself just so you would know this is something I have given a lot of thought to. Planet formation comes about through natural processes and though there is much more to learn the basic process is understood. There is nothing mysterious about it and no need to call upon a deity to get it done. I direct you to the Havard website for a ten point outline: {http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/COMPLETE/learn/star_and_planet_formation.html}.

So this is the learned man's guide to planet formation? Written by man? Hmmm...I just feel uneasy with the notion of someone telling me how something was formed when they didn't see it happen....I find my answers in Genesis for that.

I'm just worried that you are trying to fit secular logic to Spiritual answers...It doesn't work - And you won't make sense of it...

Do you have any particular example in mind?

Doesn't it make sense that in order to receive Spiritual answers to Spiritual questions you have to let go of the ridgid boundaries of "worldly" logic?

I don't think prayer is going to help anyone who doesn't know they are being prayed for. The placebo effect of prayer might benefit someone.

People have been saved through the fervent prayer of others..even times of people they don't even know....

I can relate to all that - I am interested in Egyptology but I am in no way drawn to the occult...

I once was drawn to the occult. I think that I still felt a need to believe in an afterlife after I had given up the key to Heaven.

So you were quite happy to swap Christ and seek the "truth" from the father of lies and satan himself? Wow...

I don't know a lot about ancient Egypt, but it is pretty fascinating stuff.

You're right, it is very fascinating...they were an advanced civilisation steeped in the occult.

... however you are drawn to the Truth but when confronted with it - you reject it? How open are you to seeking the Truth?

You ask how open I am to seeking God? I have rejected that truth for a reason. I no longer see validity in it, I really don't. I see no more likelihood of me believing in this than of you or I coming to believe in Vishnu.

Very sad..

[Guest HIS girl]

Ah. This was one of the first things that I can recall wondering about. I couldn't figure out how God could have made Himself and it made no sense to me that He could have always existed. Everything seemed to need a beginning.

That's the thing..Man is governed by time..God is outside of time - man operates with the logic of a beginning and an end...God doesn't - He is outside of time , He made it...so for us to try and fit Him into our thinking regarding time, space etc won't cut it. There was light in the "beginning" before God made the sun and moon...think about it..He always existed..we cannot fathom that with our "logical/beginning and end" mindset...

You asked. HG, Genesis tells you nothing about planet formation. Should astronomers stop studying star and planet formation because Genesis says, "God said, let there be..."? There is a wealth of data available for those who study this topic, but not having looked at it yourself I suppose you are not aware of that. Did you know that astronomers have actually seen a star come into existence inside a gas cloud? Planetary disks surrounding young stars are also well known. Currently we don't have telescopes capable of observing the details within the disks, but that development is probably only about ten years away. When that happens we are likely to disover planets in all stages of formation. What will you say then?

Does this prove that God is not in control of their formation? No it doesn't.

Your talking about gaining knowledge of something that you claim is not knowable from the material universe. If that is the case then how can you know anything about it?

My answer to Spiritual answers/Spiritual questions is this..the Holy Spirit has revealed things to me..it isn't MY doing but that of the HS...it's a mystery...I am open to having the HS witness to me...

You have probably read of many instances of this. I once read many instances of hauntings and took this as proof of ghosts. When I looked at one of these books later in life I realized how paltry the claims actually were. I think the proof of your claim is not as good as you imagine it is.

Ghosts, paranormal phenomena is all to do with satan..the deceiver...to discount the activity of satan and his demons is to be unwise. There is a parallel plane - that exists with what we know as the here and now...it is the Spiritual realm and there is demonic activity which manifests into paranormal activity...this is real stuff..

Are you satisfied with your search for Truth thus far...or do you still have unanswered questions?

[MorningGlory]

I have no unanswered spiritual questions; I have only scientific questions.

If you didn't have unanswered spiritual questions...you wouldn't be here. You would be on a science oriented site.

[Guest HIS girl]

You do know that ancient Babylonians, and others, thought that light existed apart from the Sun and stars? This is why the writers of Genesis have light being created days before the Stars.

So how would YOU explain this light then - that does not radiate from the sun?

We know that parts of Genesis were borrowed from the Babylonians. That is, there was a shared culture heritage. The story of Noah's Flood is one of the best examples of this.

Are you telling me that the Babylonians were the first to arrive at the theory of light before planets, heavenly bodies? How did they come to this conclusion? That is quite genius...also the Flood account is a common story throughout ALL cultures-even the Australian Aboriginals have an account of a global flood...how does any of this and what you put forth take away from the authority of the Genesis account of a Global Flood?

It certainly creates problem for Young Earth Creationists. I don't know if you cash your chips in with this lot. Do you think that astronomers can't tell us anything about how stars and planets form? Do you think that the line, "God said, 'Let there be...' " tells more than science has ever gleaned from astronomy?

You missed the point of what I stated. Scientists observation of how planets form in no way removes God's control over their formation. I have seen a chicken lay an egg...have I removed God's control over the laying process by simply observing it and God not being "physically" present when I observed it?

What sort of things can the Holy Spirit tell you? Can it tell you things about Jesus that are not in the New Testament? I am curious about this.

The Holy Spirit has revealed to me things pertaining to personal issues in my life. As well as showing me the house I am now living in. Yes the Holy Spirit shows me how Jesus is/was while on earth - a glimpse of His personal love for me...

Certainly Paul thought that the Holy Spirit gave him information about Jesus that was in addition to things he had learned from the Christian community.

Not the Holy Spirit but Jesus - revealed Himself to Paul on the road to Damascus. Paul had a personal encounter with Jesus. And yes Paul was also led by the Holy Spirit after that encounter.....

Again there is no physical evidence. Your assertions are in conflict with that of other beliefs about the paranormal, for which there is also no evidence.

That is easily disputed by people who have come across this kind of activity...My Pastor has witnessed demonic activity - in his lounge room. A man who was possessed, slithered across his loungeroom floor like a snake...as if he didn't possess a single bone in his body...this was an eyewitness account observed by the Pastor and his wife.

It is one thing to have beliefs, it is quite another to show proof for them. I can tell you that individuals such as Hans Holzer had created a paranormal world in my minds eye, complete with "evidence" and a hypothetical explanation of ghosts. There was no talk of a world deceiver or demons. There were only benign ghosts. This world is very real to many people. They don't have the slightest concern of demonic possession. They simply don't believe such things.

I don't need other peoples evidence. I take my information regarding the Spiritual realm from the Bible. Unbelief in paranormal activity does not equate to non existence of it.

I have no unanswered spiritual questions; I have only scientific questions.

Well then you will always be biased in your opinion.

[MorningGlory]

I have no unanswered spiritual questions; I have only scientific questions.

If you didn't have unanswered spiritual questions...you wouldn't be here. You would be on a science oriented site.

Yes I would, and I am. I love the discussion. Heck, I've even been talking about Harry Potter here and about the possibility of alien life on other worlds. I am totally intrigued by that stuff. I am also curious to learn what some people think about demons, etc., but it doesn't mean there is any doubt in the back of my mind.

Discussion is good, Cycel, and I'm intrigued by aliens myself. I believe they ARE demons, of course, but I still love to read about Roswell and all of that. A person can't have too MUCH knowledge. If you notice, and I'm sure you have, those with the least knowledge are the least tolerant of anything outside their little box. I have people like that in my own family but....I can always hope they will develop curiosity about things.

[arrowfromgod]

The Bible is not made up, but it doesn't prove God's existence. What it proves, is that long time ago, a bunch of people walked the earth and some were recorded. We also deny the possibility of God being able to walk the earth and write books, so we believe that humanity wrote it. We also cannot grasp the idea of God talking to people. Further, we know that when humans are involved, things tend to go wrong, so the Bible is no exception to that idea.

We believe in how we want our life to be, we are all expressing our selves. If you dedicate your life to God, then that is your path, but not everyone can or want that.

Personally, I think people should find themselves on their inside, and when they are clear about their own identity, then they should ask themselves if they believe in God, or not. If they do believe, then they can pick up a religion, but I don't think it's necessary for achieving happiness in life.

Knowing God has nothing to do with religion. It is only through a relationship with one's Maker, that one can truly know themselves--who they are. Everything worth knowing starts with knowing God, first.

How are you to have a relationship with someone, without knowing yourself first? I believe you need to take a look inside, before adding things from the outside. And if you believe that God exists in everyone, then I don't think it's Christianity.

not to disagree with you but??? i thinkeveryone is born with god in them but as we grow older we erase him in our lifes ,,, like this drug dealer i once knew ,,, im sure he wasnt always like he was ,,,he lost somthing over the years,,, cold souless eyes,,,void of feeling ,,, im sure when he was little he woke up happy ,,, wanted to have fun ,,, loved his mom ,,, but he erased god from his life turned himself into an animal ,,, i was this man so i can tell you what he used to think ,,, babys dont go to hell or retarded ppl dont go to hell thats because (i believe in my opinion ) that every one is born with god in em. i think that i would have went to heaven had i died as a child,,, no contest,,, but after i chose to be wicked then it took the love of christ to save me ,,, love in christ arrow from god

[MorningGlory]

When you mentioned certain members of your family being intolerant, what did you mean? Intolerant in what way?

Mostly in political and religious matters. There are NO racists in my family whatsoever, unless you count extreme hatred toward muslims (I think that's religious intolerance though.) Some of my relatives think Democrats are just plain evil and several have voiced opinions of Obama being the anti-Christ. They don't care that he's black...they just don't believe he's just a man. What can I say? Even my kids are extreme conservatives, more so than I. Family...you gotta love 'em!

[Grungekid]

How are you to have a relationship with someone, without knowing yourself first? I believe you need to take a look inside, before adding things from the outside. And if you believe that God exists in everyone, then I don't think it's Christianity.

Even though there are parallels with this in Christianity? The third chapter of Genesis comes to mind.