The Deity of Christ

[AnotherTraveler]

Jesus is God

[tinsnail]

From the very first posting on this thread:

"Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

What say ye, saints?"

I say that this is abundantly clear:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (God's ideas, and words), and the Word (God's ideas, and words)was with God, and the Word (God's ideas, and words)was God. (They are all spirit)

Jhn 1:2 The same(God's ideas, and words) was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (God); and without him(God) was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In him (God) was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5 And the light (of God) shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

When Jesus shows up in verse 14, he DOES the word, and displays, or manifests God in every way that can be done by a man.

Jn 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Jn 12:50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Ro 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

When he said: before Abraham was, I AM....he was instructed to do so, by God. It was not a claim to deity.

[tinsnail]

Jesus is God

and your God died on the cross. Mine never did.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (AnotherTraveler @ Dec 5 2008, 05:34 PM)

Jesus is God

and your God died on the cross. Mine never did.

As has already been explained to you, Jesus' humanity did die on the Cross, but His Deity did not. Jesus' Deity exercised personal power over death and left the body of Jesus at exactly 3:00 p.m. on the cross. Jesus is now both God and a resurrected man exhibiting the kind of body we will receive at our own resurrection.

Jesus is still both fully God and fully man. The hypostatic union is an eternal reality.

[Guest shiloh357]

I say that this is abundantly clear:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (God's ideas, and words), and the Word (God's ideas, and words)was with God, and the Word (God's ideas, and words)was God. (They are all spirit)

Jhn 1:2 The same(God's ideas, and words) was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him (God); and without him(God) was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In him (God) was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5 And the light (of God) shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Which is simply an futile act of butchering the grammar in order to support your heretical teaching. When John 1: 1-3 is cross referenced with other corroborative passage your trainwreck above is shown for what it is. Sorry, but only a very naive person would accept what you present.

When Jesus shows up in verse 14, he DOES the word, and displays, or manifests God in every way that can be done by a man.

Jn 12:49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

Jn 12:50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Ro 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

One of the chief characteristics of false teachers is how they rip verses from their natural contexts and string them together like lights on a Christmas tree in order to make the Bible say what they want it to say.

Paul says in Phillipans 2:5-8

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

(Philippians 2:5-8)

Jesus obedience was a voluntary act on His part. Jesus obedience is not evidence of any lack of Deity. Jesus gave up certain Divine perogatives when He took on flesh. He lived dependent on the Father, NOT because He was only a man, but because He was provding a righteous model for us to follow. He was showing us what living in dependence on the Father looks like.

According to Paul Jesus:

1. Make Himself of no reputatinon;

2. Took on the form of a Servant;

3. He was MADE in the likeness of men;

4. Became Humble;

5. Became obedient to death;

Notice that Jesus "was made" this, or "became" that, which means at one point he wasn't ANY of those things. If Jesus had to take those things upon Himself, it means He preexisted those things.

Paul says that Jesus being in the form of God took on human form, made in our likeness. So Jesus' obedience and volutnary self-abasement is a testimony to His Deity. For example, if Jesus were just a man then He would not have become obedient to death. He would not have had a choice.

When he said: before Abraham was, I AM....he was instructed to do so, by God. It was not a claim to deity.

Oh please... It was one of the clearest declarations of His Deity that He made in His ministry.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

(John 8:58-59)

If Jesus' claim was not a claim to Deity, they would not have attempted to stone him for blasphemy (which they tried to do more than once for His claim to be God).

[tinsnail]

In this case, I must say being heretical is a good place to be. I am quite comfortable allowing "it" to mean "it", and "word" to mean "word" and man to be man....born to mean born. Son to be son...with no dual nature, both God and man, no trinity, no persons, no co-equality and so on.

His word will judge us, and I am very happy to stand by only his word. If his word, by itself, is not adequate to bring forth truth, then I will not force meaning upon it.

Whereas the shading of numerous scriptures can make us wonder and question, I can only state how I see them. The trinity has been carefully nurtured under Catholicism for centuries, and I see it as just another of their grand lies. True, you may call me ignorant, illogical or whatever you like, but I am bound by how I see scripture.

Could you actually state your beliefs regarding the godhead, only using words contained in scripture? Would you accept that challenge?

[Guest shiloh357]

In this case, I must say being heretical is a good place to be. I am quite comfortable allowing "it" to mean "it", and "word" to mean "word" and man to be man....born to mean born. Son to be son...with no dual nature, both God and man, no trinity, no persons, no co-equality and so on.

All you do is demonstrate your lack of skill in understanding the interplay involved in translating from one language to another. You can't actually produce any research because with people like you ignorance is a virtue. Frankly this like talking a "know-it-all" teenager. You know just enough about the Bible to dangerous. If you were a Christian, you would probably able to see how utterly ridiculous your position is.

His word will judge us, and I am very happy to stand by only his word. If his word, by itself, is not adequate to bring forth truth, then I will not force meaning upon it.

You don't stand by His word. You stand by your perversion of His word basec on a complete and demonstrated ignorance of Greek and how the language works.

Whereas the shading of numerous scriptures can make us wonder and question, I can only state how I see them.

Sorry, but you cannot produce on shred of actual research that says what you think has any veracity. How you see it is really irrelevant. Truth is not open to open. Truth is all I am interested in.

Could you actually state your beliefs regarding the godhead, only using words contained in scripture? Would you accept that challenge?

My beliefs are based on the truth contained in the Scripture. "Words" can be manipulated to mean what the reader wants them to mean. Rather, my beliefs are based on the truth as revealed in the Word of God.

YOUR beliefs are based on ignoring truth and redefining key terms to make them mean what you want them to mean. You reject the idea that Jesus is both God and man, so, you reject truth. You reject the personage of the Holy Spirit, so you reject the truth. You incapable of acutally debating this issue, as you have nothing but your opinion to work from which has no basis in actual research or manuscript evidence.

You want a god you can define and control. You will accept Jesus based not on the truth of Scripture, rather you will accept Him only on the terms YOU dictate. You want a Jesus that fits in your box and can be defined according to the parameters you are willing to accept.

[tinsnail]

I repeat the challenge. Can you define Jesus, only quoting scripture, without an external vocabulary?

Cliff

[tinsnail]

This is a good start. Since we have differing opinions on

[Ovedya]

I repeat the challenge. Can you define Jesus, only quoting scripture, without an external vocabulary?

Cliff

Ah....Cliff......The entire Bible defines Jesus.

So, without wasting precious space on Worthy by re-typing the entire thing, here's a link to the Bible (Actually it's a link to a Bible resource, but by searching for Genesis 1:1 it will take you to that chapter. Read from there until you get to Revelation 21): http://www.blueletterbible.org