Why Pray for someone to get saved

[Guest shiloh357]

Well, as I have seen, you are convinced that you have perfect knowledge and could not be taught anything different then what you want by men nor angels.

I don't have perfect knowledge. I just know poor theology when I see it.

I also know enough of what the Bible says to be well convinced on this point.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus died for a select few.

I will put my faith in the theologians who met in mass at the synods and established the foundational beliefs of the churches

My faith is in Christ alone.

[irishcowboy]

our salvation is conditional...... and that condition lays with us, mankind, not God.

God has already done his part.

God does not want a single person to perish, He has provided a way for us to be reconciled with him, it is now up to us.

He has told us that we MUST BE OVERCOMERS. yes, the only way is with the Holy Spirit, and it is up to us to ACCEPT, RECEIVE HIM. God has already poured out His Spirit, now it is up to us to receive Him, either in part or more fully.

there are only two positions a person can be in, saved, or unsaved, each is a choice, you either accept or reject, it is not predestination, we have a choice. if a person is saved, they are growing, growing closer to the Lord, if they are not, they are dying. if a person is sitting still, they have grown stagnant and as with anything that is stagnant, it is dying.

should we pray for those that are unsaved? ABSOLUTELY. we should be lifting our brothers and sisters up, we should be lifting those that are unsaved up, not to have God save them, but that they have their eyes opened, that they have their hearts prepared to RECEIVE salvation. God has already provided a means of Salvation, it is up to us to RECEIVE IT.

intercessory prayer is a must....... CHRIST PRAYED INTERCESSORY PRAYERS FOR YOU AND ME, not just those during the days He walked this earth, but He prayed for us and everyone that has ever lived.

Pray that they should RECEIVE SALVATION. placing those in their paths to give witness to them of Christ.

we should also be praying that we grow more in His Will, more of HIM, less of us.

mike

[kross]

Well, as I have seen, you are convinced that you have perfect knowledge and could not be taught anything different then what you want by men nor angels.

I don't have perfect knowledge. I just know poor theology when I see it.

I also know enough of what the Bible says to be well convinced on this point.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus died for a select few.

I will put my faith in the theologians who met in mass at the synods and established the foundational beliefs of the churches

My faith is in Christ alone.

Actually, Shiloh, there are a number of places where Paul has written word like, HE died for you who believe, HE died for us, WE were chosen before the foundations of the earth that... Paul makes that statement in every letter, and usually many times over. Every place HE states that JESUS died for US, he makes that statement. That US and WE in his letters means a specific group of people. There are over 100 passages where the word Called, Elect, chosen, predestined are used in reference to those who are in JESUS. There is no passage in the scriptures that states that the shed blood of JESUS covers everyone. They only state that the shed blood of JESUS covers those who will recieve it. So I find it hard to undeerstand why you would say that there is no pasage of scripture that states that.

Still, your first response does cement the point. You have decided you have perfect understanding and thus the writings of the great reformers and theologians mean little to you, and i surely am much less then they.

[kross]

our salvation is conditional...... and that condition lays with us, mankind, not God.

God has already done his part.

God does not want a single person to perish, He has provided a way for us to be reconciled with him, it is now up to us.

He has told us that we MUST BE OVERCOMERS. yes, the only way is with the Holy Spirit, and it is up to us to ACCEPT, RECEIVE HIM. God has already poured out His Spirit, now it is up to us to receive Him, either in part or more fully.

there are only two positions a person can be in, saved, or unsaved, each is a choice, you either accept or reject, it is not predestination, we have a choice. if a person is saved, they are growing, growing closer to the Lord, if they are not, they are dying. if a person is sitting still, they have grown stagnant and as with anything that is stagnant, it is dying.

should we pray for those that are unsaved? ABSOLUTELY. we should be lifting our brothers and sisters up, we should be lifting those that are unsaved up, not to have God save them, but that they have their eyes opened, that they have their hearts prepared to RECEIVE salvation. God has already provided a means of Salvation, it is up to us to RECEIVE IT.

intercessory prayer is a must....... CHRIST PRAYED INTERCESSORY PRAYERS FOR YOU AND ME, not just those during the days He walked this earth, but He prayed for us and everyone that has ever lived.

Pray that they should RECEIVE SALVATION. placing those in their paths to give witness to them of Christ.

we should also be praying that we grow more in His Will, more of HIM, less of us.

mike

I appreciate your position. It has been a point of arguement for 400 years, since Jacob Herman began to teach humanism to his followers. I doubt we will resolve it in a chat room.

Paul wrote me a letter, in that letter he stated that I was, "chosen in HIM, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in HIS sight. In love, HE predestined me to be adopted through JESUS CHRIST for HIMSELF, accord to HIS favor and will..." (Holman Bible)

You can read that letter in the Bible. It is titled Ephesians. This part of that letter is verse 4-5 of the very first chapter.

I do not know how you can read that and not have it apply to you, or to every one of GOD's chosen in CHRIST, I do know that it applies to me.

As far as CHRIST's prayer for us, I am not going to look it up at this time, but I am pretty sure that JESUS prayed something like, "I am not praying for you only, but for all who will believe in the times to come". Which walks well with HIS other statements of, "All that the FATHER has given ME will come to ME..." and "MY sheep hear MY voice...They will not follow another"

As I mentioned to another poster, there are 100+ passages where the words Elect. Called, Chosen, Predestined are used to describe the people of JESUS CHRIST. In addition, JESUS specifically stated that HIS people come to HIM at HIS choosing (No-one has seen the FATHER except the SON and whom THE SON choose to show...)

We will not resolve this great theological question. But I confess that I do not undeerstand why anyone would choose to ignor all of these verses.

[kross]

Obviosly we cannot save ourselves, nor can we will oursevles to believe, so I do partially agree with you Kross that only the Holy Spirit can give us faith, I also agree that Christ already knows who will hear and who will not, after all He already is with us in the future.

However I disagree that God sends us to hell, scripture is clear that Christ wishes every person be saved. We do have one option and that option is to run from the Holy Spirit, we cannot call Him down, but we can turn our back when we hear. Paul did not have to believe, he had the choice to turn away from the voice of God, just as we all do.

Believing comes by faith. That faith is a gift from GOD. If you are given that faith, then you will believe. If you are not given that faith, then you will not believe.

We do not aquire faith of our own, or anyone eles human effort. We acquire faith as a gift from GOD. When you are given this faith, you act on faith.

[kross]

To put it out there clearly, I thingk GOD decided before HE started creating who would be saved and who HE would not save. No person makes a choice for GOD outside of HIS Spirit working a change in them to make that choice. Thus, the LAMB's book of life was sealed from the foundations of the world.

You might want to rethink that.

Exodus 32

33 And the LORD said to Moses,

[Guest man]

Somehow it is possible tht GOD wrote the names of people in the Book of Life at the foundation of the world, Rev 17:8, sealed the book until one who was worthy to open it, the LAMB slain from the foundation of the earth, arrived. But, in some way, GOD was fooled into writing names in the book that were not destined to stay there, so HE blots them out.

kross, you just can't be making stuff up so that it fits into your line of thinking.

2 Peter 3

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

He wasn't fooled, kross. Everyones name is written in that book. But what we do in this life determines whether it remains within the pages of that book.

[kross]

Somehow it is possible tht GOD wrote the names of people in the Book of Life at the foundation of the world, Rev 17:8, sealed the book until one who was worthy to open it, the LAMB slain from the foundation of the earth, arrived. But, in some way, GOD was fooled into writing names in the book that were not destined to stay there, so HE blots them out.

kross, you just can't be making stuff up so that it fits into your line of thinking.

2 Peter 3

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

He wasn't fooled, kross. Everyones name is written in that book. But what we do in this life determines whether it remains within the pages of that book.

OK, I think I got it. What you are telling me is that no-one, according to Rev 17:8, will be "astounded wehen they see the beast" because all of the names are written in the lamb's book from the foundation of the earth.

Well, I think that is perfectly clear. Thank you

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually, Shiloh, there are a number of places where Paul has written word like, HE died for you who believe, HE died for us, WE were chosen before the foundations of the earth that... Paul makes that statement in every letter, and usually many times over. Every place HE states that JESUS died for US, he makes that statement. That US and WE in his letters means a specific group of people.

You are reading exclusivity in those passages.

Nowhere does Paul say Jesus died for us and noone else. Saying that Jesus died for us does not automatically mean Jesus did not die for the other guys down the street. I am sorry, but that logic you are applying just doesn't hold up. You are trying to project exclusivity into the text where it is not warranted.

There is no passage in the scriptures that states that the shed blood of JESUS covers everyone.

The Bible teaches that Jesus work on the cross pays the penalties for sin, all of it. God's justice has been fully satisfied.

For what you are teaching to be true John 3:16 needs to read: "For God so loved those He chose beforehand to be saved, that He sent His only begotten Son that when the the ones God selected beforehand to be saved believe on Him, they shall not perish but have everlasting life."

John 3:16 says that salvation is for "whoseoever." It says that Jesus died for whole world.

[irishcowboy]

Kross, there is a bunch of twisting of what you have been saying....

basically, you are saying that it matters not if we pray for some one or not..... hog wash....

basically you are saying that those that are not saved have no hope, you are saying there are some that no matter what they do, or how much others pray for them, or that if they pray for their selves, they are doomed to hell.....

basically you are saying that God does send people to hell, just because he chose to from the very beginning.....

THAT IS NOT WHAT CHRIST TAUGHT.....

mike