The Moral Law Argument

[Guest reddecember]

The laws of logic prove God exists.....

We all practice the SAME laws of logic, for example, the law of contradictions.....you can't say "I am 29 years old, I am also 45 years old" because that would be a contradiction. Where did we get these laws of logic? Evolutionists might have us believe they evolved with us, or that we made them up. But they are universal! Evolutionists don't believe in absolutes, if they did, their theory would break down. But the laws of logic ARE absolutes! Same with the laws of mathmatics, 2+2=4 always!

Evolutionists believe in relativism, that there are no absolute truths, and that truth is subjective "my truth is not your truth". But, the law of non-contradiction for example, would be meaningless if truth varied from person to person. Evolutionists give up laws of logic, but expect everyone else to abide by them! This should be pointed out to them "If what you are saying is true, then why are you debating with me? How can you say that my position is wrong if truth is relative to the individual?"

Laws of logic and reasoning are God's standard for thinking. God is an unchanging, sovereign, immaterial Being, His thoughts would be abstract, universal, invariant entities. In other words, they are not made of matter, they apply everywhere, and at all times. Laws of logic are contingent upon God's unchanging nature. And they are a prerequisite for logical thinking. Therefore, logical reasoning would be impossible without the Biblical God.

I have more to say about the moral law, but this will have to do for now I have a road trip to get ready for.

God bless!

Natalie

[enoob57]

Stan, that's an awesome verse, but I don't think it really applies here. We can only do the best with what we are given. There is *no other way* to think about thinks except through assuming that there are these logical relations that hold. If we didn't, we couldn't even read and make sense of the writings of Paul. If I am going to make meaningful statements about God, I am left no other avenue.

Of course it applies bary...I applied it.

I agree we can only do our best, and the BEST thing for us to do is to have faith in God. Faith belies logic and is why so many people do NOT come to Jesus, even though God draws them. They can't make the "illogical" jump to faith.

I don't think faith belies logic. Even that sentiment implicitly makes use of the assumption that there are logical truths about the world. You can't just handwave logical truths away, because when you try it's self defeating.

And not talking about *logic* per se but reasoning more generally- if the gospel is true shouldn't we be able to uncover that about the world too? Shouldn't faith and reason converge?

It does in an infinite setting Where God 'IS' the only One! A thing with bounds does not purview The Being without them! Love, Steven

[MorningGlory]

Coming close to your own mortality is the best thing to put God in His proper perspective.

Well, I agree. I actually think that faith is a consequence of our evolutionary driven horror vacui.

But there is a problem. If you were born in Jemen, then your own mortality would be the best thing to put Allah in his proper perspective.

Ciao

- viole

Not a good analogy, viole. 'Allah' doesn't exist.

[enoob57]

Coming close to your own mortality is the best thing to put God in His proper perspective.

Well, I agree. I actually think that faith is a consequence of our evolutionary driven horror vacui.

But there is a problem. If you were born in Jemen, then your own mortality would be the best thing to put Allah in his proper perspective.

Ciao

- viole

What amazes me most about you viole is the simplification of evolution as the coming from rocks and energy as producing horror from nothingness! This seems

to be desperation and not logical thought processes! Could it be (?) but when organized as such-> the rocks have brought fear to life going to nothingness! Really?

The very concept of fear 'IS' authority in a punitive demarcation of a structured do and this results don't and this... and this is born the perfect logic of ID...

Random is not possible in the reality we see in life >(fear)< for clearly the laws were in place before the nature became and the nature of fear is best seen when

the authority is brought to bear upon the violator.... to add to this in culminate form 'IS' the warning~ without seeing the authority executed except by Word of Authority...

As many brave people walk boldly till the last step is the next step and then turn in fear of what is not known past that place called death... Love, Steven

[rjp34652]

I wasn't sure.. but hopefully this is the appropriate place to put this...

So I've been reading Mere Christianity, as so many Christians seem to hold it in such high esteem. This is the second time I've read it, the first being a brief skim through when I was about 15. But looking more in depth to what he is actually pseudo-philosophizing, I find that the argument from an absolute moral law doesn't really impress me so much. I don't want to get into an argument as to what the moral law IS, or what it entails, or even whether it exists - but about where it might come from. (Sorry, but being an atheist, bible verses recommending god as the source aren't very convincing)

But the argument seems to go like this:

a) there is a moral law

b) if there is a moral law, there must be a moral law giver

c) there is a moral law giver (i.e. GOD)

My rub, of course, is with B. But before I start in... it'd be nice to hear your thoughts on it. Is there any way you can justify this (what I would call a leap of) logic?

This being the political season in America where every cockroach that seeks office is given a hearing by the general population, I thought I'd share a thought or two.

Have you noticed how politics are moralized and morality is politicized?

Every politician that can wag his or her tongue speaks of values. It matters not that the values of which they speak are transitory and illusory, rather like the moldy apple pie from the previous election.

Every time morality is mentioned, voices are raised that its wrong to merge such things with politics. 'You can't legislate morality', they say or perhaps they cry vehemently citing separation of church and state. This is how morality is diluted and politicized in America.

Oh the hypocrisy of career politicians and those who hide their wickedness in the folds of the law.

Discussions about politics and/or morality seem to have forgotten one hard point; justice.

Whether its source is the throne of heaven or the slums of man, justice is a thing that will eventually be demanded. Every murder and theft and wrong must be answered for. If there is no justice in the courts then it will be meted out on the street. There is a penalty for what is done in the darkness as well as reward for the good.

Those that forget God forget justice.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited September 5, 2012 by rjp34652

[Terra7]

People want-evidence (hard cold data to prove) here`s what science says today ;The visible universe is only 4% (that is documented) which leaves 96% invisible so, the unseen realm holds more than the visible spectrum of light (not just particles or atoms or neutrino`s ) but even beings that are unseen . Ever watched any of the Ghost shows available today -they are beginning to catch and record images and voices of unseen entities (not saying who or what they are) my point is ;The unseen is greater and we as humans have far less knowledge of that realm then the 4% visible part of this one . Because it is not seen does not mean it does not exist (you cant see air right now around you but, you need it for life to continue) -The moral law was meant to govern the behavior of us living beings ( you or anyone does not have the right to just kill others ) as one part of a moral law -it is a code of guidance to distinguish humans from uncivilized barbaric behavior (those who live without a moral code) . All existence comes from the unseen realm and the laws the govern everything in the known universe comes from the unseen realm (can you see gravity?). Human beings are more special then they can possible imagine We live in both realms at the same time - but we all know a day will come when we leave this one -which begs the question -why were we created -the universe is saying there is meaning for itself - and you should ask the same question of your life .

[Godsmercyinus]

"Universal Moral Law".

It's really simple-sounding, but I've realized something:

If you try to look at things and important issues from God's perspective, you already know what is right and wrong. But it's so hard and hardly anyone tries, because they don't want to confront the pressure that comes from knowing it.

In human terms, "Right" and "Wrong"? Interchangeable. Varied. Old-fashioned way of thinking. Differently defined for a couple of years, then the bar gets lowered. And then you are either left with some kind of extremist "Left-Wing" society. The kind that doesn't care if it's wrong, or if it's right for them but wrong for others. It just feels "Right".

[Guest]

If you only refer to your God, then the claim is obviously falsified by evidence. Do you know any Muslim or Hindu who put (your) God in the right perspective, once confronted with his own mortality?

There Are Two Driving Considerations That I Know Of

To Be Found Within Islam And Hindu Lands

He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. Luke 11:23

One Is The Hatred Of The God Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob

As Seen In The Slaughter Of Believers

And Jews And Even Of Their

Very Own Neighbors

And Children

But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. Psalms 8:36

And The Other Is A Deep Hunger

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

For The Living God

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

Of Peace

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14:27

And Hope

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:17

And Jesus Comes To Them

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:15-18

Within Visions And Dreams

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Acts 2:17-18

And They Are

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

Born Again

~

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe