If God's will is to save all His people

[Guest shiloh357]

In Romans 8 it also says whom HE predestined, these HE also called. A word used countless times to indicate it is GOD's calling that saves.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

(Romans 8:30)

What Paul is not saying is that God calls those He predestines. If Paul's case is that God only calls those whom He predestines, that would be different, but that is not what he says.

In verse 29, Paul tells us that He has predestined us to be conformed into the image of His Son. That is the "finish line." That is the ultimate goal God has in mind. It is the "purpose" mentinoed in v. 28 We are called according to His purpose, or design/plan, to wit, that we would be conformed to the image of His Son.

Notice the progression, We are called, Justified and Glorified according that stated purpose. Our calling, and everything that God works out in our lives from here 'till eternnity is designed to fulfill His goal of conforming us to into the image of Christ. All of those things must be understood within the context of that purpose.

For my part, I am not saying that God does not call anyone to be saved. I believe that Holy Spirit is always set out convicting hearts of sinners and calling them to repentance. In this particular passage of Romans 8 though, that is not the subject matter. From the first verse on, the subject matter pertains to those already "In Christ" and what this union with God in Christ affords the believer.

There are no emotional rants in anything I have written. But, since you seem to see them, I will stop.

Falsely accusing me of promoting humanism in the full knowledge that nothing I have said even remotely qualified as humanistic teaching, shows that you are getting angry, and it shows that you are unwilling to actually engage what I said, and yeah, it looks very emotional.

[exrockstar]

I cannot explain why God would choose to make man knowing that he would sin and rebel.

the downfall with free will is that some may make the choice to rebel.

the upside to it is that those that there will be some that choose to honor and glorify God. Those that honor and glorify

is a type of action that God can appreciate. He could of made robots that are forced to love Him but what good would

that do?

[kross]

I cannot explain why God would choose to make man knowing that he would sin and rebel.

the downfall with free will is that some may make the choice to rebel.

the upside to it is that those that there will be some that choose to honor and glorify God. Those that honor and glorify

is a type of action that God can appreciate. He could of made robots that are forced to love Him but what good would

that do?

Well then, what good is heaven? If a place is going to be created where temptation and flesh issues are going to be removed, is that not what you have stated GOD does not want?

Is GOD's will done on earth as it is in heaven?

[kross]

In Romans 8 it also says whom HE predestined, these HE also called. A word used countless times to indicate it is GOD's calling that saves.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

(Romans 8:30)

What Paul is not saying is that God calls those He predestines. If Paul's case is that God only calls those whom He predestines, that would be different, but that is not what he says.

In verse 29, Paul tells us that He has predestined us to be conformed into the image of His Son. That is the "finish line." That is the ultimate goal God has in mind. It is the "purpose" mentinoed in v. 28 We are called according to His purpose, or design/plan, to wit, that we would be conformed to the image of His Son.

Notice the progression, We are called, Justified and Glorified according that stated purpose. Our calling, and everything that God works out in our lives from here 'till eternnity is designed to fulfill His goal of conforming us to into the image of Christ. All of those things must be understood within the context of that purpose.

For my part, I am not saying that God does not call anyone to be saved. I believe that Holy Spirit is always set out convicting hearts of sinners and calling them to repentance. In this particular passage of Romans 8 though, that is not the subject matter. From the first verse on, the subject matter pertains to those already "In Christ" and what this union with God in Christ affords the believer.

There are no emotional rants in anything I have written. But, since you seem to see them, I will stop.

Falsely accusing me of promoting humanism in the full knowledge that nothing I have said even remotely qualified as humanistic teaching, shows that you are getting angry, and it shows that you are unwilling to actually engage what I said, and yeah, it looks very emotional.

Not suere what verion you are reading.

Romans 8:28 refers to "THE CALLED" according to HIS purpose.

The greek word translated "THE CALLED" is also translated "THE ELECT" or "THE CHOSEN". It is not an action or a past tense verb, it is a specific group of people who are called according to HIS purpose.

It is built on the statements that we have recieved the spirit of adoption, waiting on the adoption of our bodies, and is followed by the teaching that we were predestined to this and that nothing can separate us from it.

[larryt]

I cannot explain why God would choose to make man knowing that he would sin and rebel.

the downfall with free will is that some may make the choice to rebel.

the upside to it is that those that there will be some that choose to honor and glorify God. Those that honor and glorify

is a type of action that God can appreciate. He could of made robots that are forced to love Him but what good would

that do?

So then salvation is given to those that somehow "earn" it because they chose to honor God???? Are you saying that salvation is based on something that God can appreciate????

LT

[Guest shiloh357]

Not suere what verion you are reading.

Romans 8:28 refers to "THE CALLED" according to HIS purpose.

I realize that, but I am reading it concert with what follows in vv 29-30. "The Called" according to His purpose are called according to His purpose. It is not a really big leap in logic.

The greek word translated "THE CALLED" is also translated "THE ELECT" or "THE CHOSEN". It is not an action or a past tense verb, it is a specific group of people who are called according to HIS purpose.

Yes, but it is the purpose that is at issue. The purpose remains to conform us who believe into the image of Christ, which will not be fully realized until the adoption (redemption of our bodies).

It is built on the statements that we have recieved the spirit of adoption, waiting on the adoption of our bodies, and is followed by the teaching that we were predestined to this and that nothing can separate us from it.

It based on God's foreknowledge, though. God foreknows who will saved and it is those whom He knows will be saved that He has predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Nothing in Romans 8 suggests that God chose who would be saved and who would not. That idea doesn't even fit the context.

[exrockstar]

Well then, what good is heaven? If a place is going to be created where temptation and flesh issues are going to be removed, is that not what you have stated GOD does not want?

Is GOD's will done on earth as it is in heaven?

i never said God does not what "rebellion." It's taking in the good with the bad.

In later times, the Church will rule so in a sense there will still be free-will therefore there will still be rebellion and mortality.

So then salvation is given to those that somehow "earn" it because they chose to honor God???? Are you saying that salvation is based on something that God can appreciate????

LT

I wouldnt say salvation is something earned. Honoring God is not just about being good.

For mankind, salvation has always been a substitutionary death. We've seen that since Adam. Excercising that "process" is the first step

of honoring God. Would I say that is earned? Maybe not. Would I say that it's an acknowledgement? yes, however I would have to ponder on that.

[larryt]

Not suere what verion you are reading.

Romans 8:28 refers to "THE CALLED" according to HIS purpose.

I realize that, but I am reading it concert with what follows in vv 29-30. "The Called" according to His purpose are called according to His purpose. It is not a really big leap in logic.

This is adding to the scriptures something that is not there. It is so far fetched that it is not logic at all.

It is THE CALLED/THE ELECT that are predestined........ not the THE CALLED that are called.

The greek word translated "THE CALLED" is also translated "THE ELECT" or "THE CHOSEN". It is not an action or a past tense verb, it is a specific group of people who are called according to HIS purpose.

Yes, but it is the purpose that is at issue. The purpose remains to conform us who believe into the image of Christ, which will not be fully realized until the adoption (redemption of our bodies).

The passage is not about "the purpose" but is a statement of fact. THE CALLED ARE FOREKNOWN(loved), THE FOREKNOWN ARE PREDESTINED, THOSE WHO ARE PREDESTINED ARE CALLED, THE CALLED ARE JUSTIFIED, & THE JUSTIFIED ARE GLORIFIED.

You have been reading to much of the heretical purpose driven church.

It is built on the statements that we have recieved the spirit of adoption, waiting on the adoption of our bodies, and is followed by the teaching that we were predestined to this and that nothing can separate us from it.

It based on God's foreknowledge, though. God foreknows who will saved and it is those whom He knows will be saved that He has predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Nothing in Romans 8 suggests that God chose who would be saved and who would not. That idea doesn't even fit the context.

Everything says that God chooses who will be save OUT of those that ARE lost. Not the same as "who would be saved and who would not be saved." Big difference. You are arguing against you own straw man.

LT

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 28 2008, 11:35 AM)

QUOTE

Not suere what verion you are reading.

Romans 8:28 refers to "THE CALLED" according to HIS purpose.

I realize that, but I am reading it concert with what follows in vv 29-30. "The Called" according to His purpose are called according to His purpose. It is not a really big leap in logic.

This is adding to the scriptures something that is not there. It is so far fetched that it is not logic at all.

It is THE CALLED/THE ELECT that are predestined........ not the THE CALLED that are called.

No it is not adding to Scriptures at all. Observe:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)

According to Paul, those are predestinated are also those who are called, justified and glorified. So "The Called" are the ones predestinated and those who He did predestinate, he called. Ergo, the "The Called" are called accordning to His purpose. "The Called" are the ones God foreknew would be saved, and those He foreknew would be saved, he predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

QUOTE

QUOTE

It is built on the statements that we have recieved the spirit of adoption, waiting on the adoption of our bodies, and is followed by the teaching that we were predestined to this and that nothing can separate us from it.

It based on God's foreknowledge, though. God foreknows who will saved and it is those whom He knows will be saved that He has predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Nothing in Romans 8 suggests that God chose who would be saved and who would not. That idea doesn't even fit the context.

Everything says that God chooses who will be save OUT of those that ARE lost.

Nothing in the Scripture even comes close to saying that. It says that God foreknew who would be saved, and that God has chosen, determined or predestined that those whom He has foreknew would be saved, are to be conformed into the image of His Son. Paul is talking about what God has predestined for Christians to become, not who will, or will not become Christians.

[larryt]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 28 2008, 11:35 AM)

QUOTE

Not suere what verion you are reading.

Romans 8:28 refers to "THE CALLED" according to HIS purpose.

I realize that, but I am reading it concert with what follows in vv 29-30. "The Called" according to His purpose are called according to His purpose. It is not a really big leap in logic.

This is adding to the scriptures something that is not there. It is so far fetched that it is not logic at all.

It is THE CALLED/THE ELECT that are predestined........ not the THE CALLED that are called.

No it is not adding to Scriptures at all. Observe:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)

According to Paul, those are predestinated are also those who are called, justified and glorified. So "The Called" are the ones predestinated and those who He did predestinate, he called. Ergo, the "The Called" are called accordning to His purpose. "The Called" are the ones God foreknew would be saved, and those He foreknew would be saved, he predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Absolutely not. Do not attribute to Paul the twisted logic of shiloh. Paul uses two different words. THE CALLED is klatos and with the definite article it is THE CALLED -- the invited,

Them he CALLED is kaleo. to name, to call aloud, to bid to a feast.

Paul makes a distinction you fail to see. You add to scripture and twist things to conform to your human ideas of God.

QUOTE

QUOTE

It is built on the statements that we have recieved the spirit of adoption, waiting on the adoption of our bodies, and is followed by the teaching that we were predestined to this and that nothing can separate us from it.

It based on God's foreknowledge, though. God foreknows who will saved and it is those whom He knows will be saved that He has predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Nothing in Romans 8 suggests that God chose who would be saved and who would not. That idea doesn't even fit the context.

Everything says that God chooses who will be save OUT of those that ARE lost.

Nothing in the Scripture even comes close to saying that. It says that God foreknew who would be saved, and that God has chosen, determined or predestined that those whom He has foreknew would be saved, are to be conformed into the image of His Son. Paul is talking about what God has predestined for Christians to become, not who will, or will not become Christians.

We already went over "foreknew" and the most trusted commentators said outright that in Rom 8:28 Paul was NOT just talking about pre-knowledge.

John Gill

Ver. 29. For whom he did foreknow, &c.] The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these

Matthew Henry

I. Whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. All that God designed for glory and happiness as the end he decreed to grace and holiness as the way. Not, whom he did foreknow to be holy those he predestinated to be so. The counsels and decrees of God do not truckle to the frail and fickle will of men; no, God’s foreknowledge of the saints is the same with that everlasting love wherewith he is said to have loved them, #Jer 31:3. God’s knowing his people is the same with his owning them, #Ps 1:6; #Joh 10:14; #2Ti 2:19. See #Ro 11:2. Words of knowledge often in scripture denote affection; so here: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God, #1Pe 1:2. And the same word is rendered fore-ordained, #1Pe 1:20. Whom he did foreknow, that is, whom he designed for his friends and favourites. I know thee by name, said God to Moses, #Ex 33:12. Now those whom God thus foreknew he did predestinate to be conformed to Christ.

and JFB

whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate—foreordain. In what sense are we to take the word "foreknow" here? "Those who He foreknew would repent and believe," say Pelagians of every age and every hue. But this is to thrust into the text what is contrary to the whole spirit, and even letter, of the apostle’s teaching (see #Ro 9:11 2Ti 1:9). In #Ro 11:2, and #Ps 1:6, God’s "knowledge" of His people cannot be restricted to a mere foresight of future events, or acquaintance with what is passing here below. Does "whom He did foreknow," then, mean "whom He foreordained?" Scarcely, because both "foreknowledge" and "foreordination" are here mentioned, and the one as the cause of the other. It is difficult indeed for our limited minds to distinguish them as states of the Divine Mind towards men; especially since in #Ac 2:23 "the counsel" is put before "the foreknowledge of God," while in #1Pe 1:2 "election" is said to be "according to the foreknowledge of God." But probably God’s foreknowledge of His own people means His "peculiar, gracious, complacency in them," while His "predestinating" or "foreordaining" them signifies His fixed purpose, flowing from this, to "save them and call them with an holy calling" (#2Ti 1:9).

JFB identifies your bent on the passage as the heresy of the Pelegians of every age and every hue.

LT