If God's will is to save all His people

[Dave123]

Sigh!!!

[Dave123]

...

Edited December 26, 2008 by Dave123

[Dave123]

They do not become His sheep until they accept Christ. There is NOTHING in the New Testament that suggests that God decided who would or would not be His sheep.

You've got it backwards, shiloh. They did not become His sheep because they believed, they believed because they were His sheep. Look at the verse in question, even the context, and you will see this clearly.

Jesus does not mean "I never knew you from the foundation of the world." You are trying to pencil that in there. What Jesus is saying I never knew you throughout your life. From the time you were born, until now, I never knew you. Nowhere does it indicate that Jesus rejected them on the grounds that they were not chosen from before creation. And that is only ONE hermeneutic problem with your treatment of Matthew 7:23. It is way easier to rip one verse out of its natural setting than to examine it the way the author intended.

I'm afraid you are guilty of your own accusation, friend. "It says "I never knew you" not, 'I never knew you throughout your life'.

Jeremiah 1:5

[Dave123]

shiloh357 wrote:

God does this so that all men are without excuse. God knows who will ultimately reject Him, but He provides them with the opportunity anyway. In this way, God's righteousness and justice is preserved. When the opportunity is presented and rejected, the one who rejected God's offer has no one but themself to blame.

Why would God send His prophets to plead with those who, according to your beliefs cannot hear Him, and even if they could hear him, would in their total depravity never respond in the first place? Why pretend that He is mourning and weeping over those he never had an "intimate foreknowledge/forelove (as you call it) for? God would, in essence, be dishonest and disingenuous, as there would be no intimate relationship to weep over to begin with. Frankly, it is YOUR position that really makes no sense.

They are without excuse whether they hear the Gospel or not. Romans 1:18-32

And you further answered your own question in your next reply. Your words...

God allows a lot of things to happen that are not in His will. He allows people to be raped, murdered, lied to, slandered, cheated, etc. That is because while God has a perfect will that hates those things, He has a permissive will that allows what He hates to occur.

And He allows people to die in their sin.

That is not what we teach. What we teach is that salvation is universally avaiable to all men.

The Bible never says that Jesus die for the sins of a select group of people. The Bible says that Jesus paid the penalty of SIN. It does not qualify WHOSE sin. Jesus satisfied God's infinite justice against sin, ALL of it. Meaning that Jesus died to satisfy the penatly of sin (death) that hung over the entire human race.

Then answer these questions for me.

Did Christ come and die to effectually save men or just make salvation possible?

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

Did Christ suffer for the sin of unbelief? If so, why should that sin hinder the sinner more than any other sin for which Christ died?

It's one thing to say that salvation is offered to all, it's quite another to say that there are people suffering in hell because of double jeopardy.

BTW, Jesus specifically said that He layed down His life for His sheep. His words, not mine.

Dave

Edited December 26, 2008 by Dave123

[kross]

I don't mean to get in the middle of this debate,because I know what I believe and I couldn't even come near to stating my position as clear as Shilo does but here is my honest question on what I don't understand.

If the theology that God has already chosen some for salvation and the rest to damnation whats the point of the tribulation?

We know it's for God to prove who He is to the world and to destroy the enemy. Then we know He will judge those of the world for their sins, but why judge them? They had no choice for their life and rejection of Christ because they were already damned to the lake of fire from the foundation of the world? So after all hell on earth breaking loose during the tribulation, the lost are then sentenced to eternal torment, all over things they had no choice over?

We know God has many attributes, loving, just merciful, He can be an angry God, in the OT we see a vengful God, but unfair and cruel?

I don't mean to talk of end times here, theres another forum for that, I just need an honest answer.

While it sounds good, let me ask you this question;

Was it OK for GOD to choose a people for HIMSELF before JESUS came?

Why is it not acceptable now? If the old tesament is a foreshadow of what is to come, why is this not understood?

And, if GOD knows that no-one in this world will ever choose HIM, thus all would be condemned, is it wrong for HIM to step in and save some for HIS glory and HIS purposes?

It is HIS creation and HE does as HE pleases.

[kross]

I don't mean to get in the middle of this debate,because I know what I believe and I couldn't even come near to stating my position as clear as Shilo does but here is my honest question on what I don't understand.

If the theology that God has already chosen some for salvation and the rest to damnation whats the point of the tribulation?

We know it's for God to prove who He is to the world and to destroy the enemy. Then we know He will judge those of the world for their sins, but why judge them? They had no choice for their life and rejection of Christ because they were already damned to the lake of fire from the foundation of the world? So after all hell on earth breaking loose during the tribulation, the lost are then sentenced to eternal torment, all over things they had no choice over?

We know God has many attributes, loving, just merciful, He can be an angry God, in the OT we see a vengful God, but unfair and cruel?

I don't mean to talk of end times here, theres another forum for that, I just need an honest answer.

You bring up a good point. Judging someone for what you have already prechosen them to be seems rather pointless and cruel, in that God predetermines who will be disallowed from receiving Christ and then they are judged for a sin they were basically forced to commit.

It also brings up the issue of preaching. If God has already saved from antiquity those prechosen to be saved, then preaching the gospel is another pointless act. There would be no need to plead and intercede for sinners if there is no hope of them being allowed to receive the gospel. God would not send out missionaries to convert those who were already saved from before the foundation of earth. If they are already saved from before creation, then no amount of preaching or the lack thereof, can have any possible effect on the outcome.

There is no justice in God judging those who rebel in the last days if they had no choice but to commit such rebellion and even more, to do so because God allegedly foreordained that they should hopelessly lost in this rebellion with no hope of salvation.In this view, God is judging people for a sin of rebellion that they had no choice to commit and additionally were denied by God, the oppotunity and ability to repent of. Nothing could be further from the truth and further from the nature and true character of God as revealed in the Scriptures.

Exactly Shilo, what is the point of spreading the Gosple? Why do we need to witness or give our testimony? The Lord tells us we are the light of the world and the salt of the earth. Why? What would be the point of being the light of the world if those in the world don't even see it. So many things wouldn't add up if those in the world had no hope of salvation at all. Why would I need to be a good witness for Christ if it was a fruitless endevor?

Paul said he preached the gospel against his will and by the will of GOD. We are entrusted with a stewardship. We preach and teach that they who are of GOD may be called out of the world by the presentation of the gospel. How will they call on one they have not heard of?

If you look at the verses where it discusses people responding to the gospel, you will see this pointed out.

In Acts, Corinthians, and Ephesians it states that people who are chosen believed when they heard the gospel. GOD has called HIS people by our preaching. HE does not need us, HE invites us to be a part of HIS work.

[stacey c]

I don't mean to get in the middle of this debate,because I know what I believe and I couldn't even come near to stating my position as clear as Shilo does but here is my honest question on what I don't understand.

If the theology that God has already chosen some for salvation and the rest to damnation whats the point of the tribulation?

We know it's for God to prove who He is to the world and to destroy the enemy. Then we know He will judge those of the world for their sins, but why judge them? They had no choice for their life and rejection of Christ because they were already damned to the lake of fire from the foundation of the world? So after all hell on earth breaking loose during the tribulation, the lost are then sentenced to eternal torment, all over things they had no choice over?

We know God has many attributes, loving, just merciful, He can be an angry God, in the OT we see a vengful God, but unfair and cruel?

I don't mean to talk of end times here, theres another forum for that, I just need an honest answer.

While it sounds good, let me ask you this question;

Was it OK for GOD to choose a people for HIMSELF before JESUS came?

Why is it not acceptable now? If the old tesament is a foreshadow of what is to come, why is this not understood?

And, if GOD knows that no-one in this world will ever choose HIM, thus all would be condemned, is it wrong for HIM to step in and save some for HIS glory and HIS purposes?

It is HIS creation and HE does as HE pleases.

But weren't there those before Jesus who were not of the Jewish nation who were "saved" because of their belief in the One True God?

And I agree, it is The Holy Spirit who draws all men unto Himself at one point in their life or another. Man either eccepts that gift or rejects it,

God knew from the beginning every choice or descision man would ever make in his life time, but He loved the world so much He sent His only Son to save mankind from their sins.

God created man to worship Him and have fellowship with Him, so why wouldn't He want all of mankind to worship Him?

[Guest shiloh357]

While it sounds good, let me ask you this question;

Was it OK for GOD to choose a people for HIMSELF before JESUS came?

Why is it not acceptable now? If the old tesament is a foreshadow of what is to come, why is this not understood?

And, if GOD knows that no-one in this world will ever choose HIM, thus all would be condemned, is it wrong for HIM to step in and save some for HIS glory and HIS purposes?

The difference between God's choice of Israel to be his nation and your assertions about who God chooses, is that God's choice of Israel pertained to Israel being a light to the world, an evangelistic arm as it was to reach the world unto Himself. God's reason for choosing Israel has nothing to do with, and completely dissimilar to your ubiblical concept of predestination. God's choice of Israel pertains to service, not salvation. God chose that Israel would be an example, a showcase of God's faithfulness, and despite their failings and shortcomings (not unlike our own) Israel has been exactly that. It goes all the way back to God's choice of Jacob (Israel) over Esau). God elected Israel to be His nation in the earth and to be the vehicle through which The Hope of all the ages, Messiah Jesus, would come into the world.

God's choice of Israel was not a case of God choosing Israel at the expense of other nations, but so that they could be a blessing to the other nations. Again, it would be pointless for Israel or for Christians today to be a light to the world if who is or is not going to be saved was already decided in the indeterminate eternal past.

Furthermore, Israel is not a foreshadowing or type of the Church.

[Guest shiloh357]

Paul said he preached the gospel against his will and by the will of GOD. We are entrusted with a stewardship. We preach and teach that they who are of GOD may be called out of the world by the presentation of the gospel. How will they call on one they have not heard of?

Which makes my point. If they are already saved and sealed from eternity past, then what difference does it make? According to your theology, they were already saved even before they were born and cannot be lost. If someone does not preach to them, would that impact God previous choice?

If you look at the verses where it discusses people responding to the gospel, you will see this pointed out.

In Acts, Corinthians, and Ephesians it states that people who are chosen believed when they heard the gospel. GOD has called HIS people by our preaching. HE does not need us, HE invites us to be a part of HIS work.

The problem is that the Bible presents the spreading of the gospel as something that must be done with urgency. If everyone who is saved is already chosen sealed and saved prior to their birth, and if those who are lost are already hopelessly doomed to hell with no opportunity to accept Christ, then logically, no amount of preaching or the lack of it will make any difference. It has already been decided.

Logically, there is no reason to pray for the unsaved neighbor, classmate or coworker if we follow your theology. Their eternal destiny is sealed one way or another, and no amount of intercessory prayer will make a difference. If they are not "chosen" for salvation, then it is pointless to pray. If they are one of the "chosen," then they are already saved and there is no reason to pray for them to have a salvation that they already possess.

[larryt]

If the theology that God has already chosen some for salvation and the rest to damnation whats the point of the tribulation?

Hi stacey,

This statement is indicative of the problem in understanding election. I don't think I have ever stated that God chooses some to damnation. It is usually inserted by someone else in their arguments.

To understand election one must understand that Adam fell completely and totally when he disobeyed God. Adam brought upon all mankind damnation. All are doomed to eternal punishment. There is none righteous no not one.

I cannot explain why God would choose to make man knowing that he would sin and rebel. God made the angels and some of them fell. And God is all knowing, therefore He knew they both would rebel even in eternity past. I believe it though because it is in the bible.

The premise is that man fell of his own volition/choice, and died because of his sin. He was separated from God and would eventually return to dust. Knowing that man would sin, God decided, according to His own will, to save some out of the race that rebelled. The angels sinned individually and therefore would pay the price individually. Man sinned in a federal head, Adam, and therefore could be redeemed.

When Adam sinned God would have been just in destroying him right there and then. God chose to allow man to multiply and save some of Adam's offspring. This is not the same as "choosing some to life and choosing some to die." Man was already dead and God chose to give some life. Others He left as they were.

The God of the Bible is a Sovereign God, meaning He can so whatever He wants when He wants to any creature in His creation as He sees fit.

We know it's for God to prove who He is to the world and to destroy the enemy. Then we know He will judge those of the world for their sins, but why judge them? They had no choice for their life and rejection of Christ because they were already damned to the lake of fire from the foundation of the world? So after all hell on earth breaking loose during the tribulation, the lost are then sentenced to eternal torment, all over things they had no choice over?

Salvation is not something that was made available at the cross but was finished at the cross. Jesus came to IN FACT save HIS people from their sins. He accomplished everything the Father sent Him to do. He will find ALL HIS SHEEP, and He won't lose ANY. GOD CANNOT FAIL.

We know God has many attributes, loving, just merciful, He can be an angry God, in the OT we see a vengful God, but unfair and cruel?

I don't think God is unfair or cruel. The natural man thinks God is unfair though. And Paul rebukes him.

Ro 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14