who can seperate us from the Love of Christ...

[kross]

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36 Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Can anybody tell me what those verses mean?

Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Certainly there are enough backslidden Christians who have counted the cost of following Christ and abandoned the faith.. Paul knew a few of them in Demus who loved the world more and abandoned him and Christ... So i don't really know what Paul is talking about here. He seems to be contradicting himself.

2Ti 4:10 for Demas forsook me, having loved this present world, and went to Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

Where does it say Demus abandoned CHRIST? Just because he chose not to suffer with Paul does not mean he adandoned CHRIST.

Here's a simple question;

Has the faith abandoned them? They may be a long way from living a CHRIST like life now, does that mean that CHRIST has abandoned them?

[Guest fire storm]

his love for us is unconditional. god loved us even when we were sinners.god loved us before we were even born.

[EricH]

Only we ourselves, having free will, can separate us from the love of Christ.

Agree with what you were trying to say, however even if we turn from Christ and begin to walk in sin, Jesus will still love us. Now i am not saying we can continue in sin and expect to go to heaven, but Jesus will never stop loving us.

The problem is that may fit your theological position but it goes against the context of the passage. Consider theses addtional verses:

First, 8:1 defines the audience:

Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:1 HCSB

The audience is those who are saved

The method of salvation is God's soveriegn election:

I am not familiar with the HCSB, but the Bible says in Romans 8:1 There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those that are ''supposedly'' in Christ, who are walking after their flesh, and not following the Spirit, are in danger of condemnation.

Yes, there is a textual variant here. Most versions omit the phrase KJV includes. It is only included in later less dependable manuscripts and most scholars view it as an interpolation. It appears to be an error in some Byzantine texts (which is what King James used because it was all he had available), where the copyist accidentally copied an identical phrase out of 8:4

in order that the law's requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 HCSB

It is in none of the earliest versions of both the Alexandrian and Western texts.

HCSB is the Holman. it is not in NASB, NIV, NET, RSV, etc.

[EricH]

Only we ourselves, having free will, can separate us from the love of Christ.

Agree with what you were trying to say, however even if we turn from Christ and begin to walk in sin, Jesus will still love us. Now i am not saying we can continue in sin and expect to go to heaven, but Jesus will never stop loving us.

The problem is that may fit your theological position but it goes against the context of the passage. Consider theses addtional verses:

First, 8:1 defines the audience:

Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:1 HCSB

The audience is thoI think that is a cop out really, even if you were to omit the phrase who walk not after the flesh but after the Sopirit , when you read Romans 1se who are saved

The method of salvation is God's soveriegn election:

I am not familiar with the HCSB, but the Bible says in Romans 8:1 There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those that are ''supposedly'' in Christ, who are walking after their flesh, and not following the Spirit, are in danger of condemnation.

Yes, there is a textual variant here. Most versions omit the phrase KJV includes. It is only included in later less dependable manuscripts and most scholars view it as an interpolation. It appears to be an error in some Byzantine texts (which is what King James used because it was all he had available), where the copyist accidentally copied an identical phrase out of 8:4

in order that the law's requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 HCSB

It is in none of the earliest versions of both the Alexandrian and Western texts.

HCSB is the Holman. it is not in NASB, NIV, NET, RSV, etc.

This is a cop out in my opinion. Even if you omit the phrase ''who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit'' from Romans 8:1, you still cannot escape the context of the whole passage when reading Romans 8 verses 1-10

Romans 8:1-8

1 There is therefore now no more condemnation to the that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through our flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law God nor can it be.

8 So they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The whole purpose of this passage is to explain that we must not continue to be led by our own flesh, lust, and desire. But that we have to let the Spirit of God lead us into the freedom from sin that He sent his Son to give us. Yet there are those that would use 1/2 of one scripture to say just the opposite.

It isnot a cop out at all. it is somehting that needs to be wrestled with. I addressed the context above in my post. No one is arguing that believers hould be led by the Spirit as opposed to their flesh. But the discussion is whether or not people can lose their salvation.

[EricH]

Only we ourselves, having free will, can separate us from the love of Christ.

Agree with what you were trying to say, however even if we turn from Christ and begin to walk in sin, Jesus will still love us. Now i am not saying we can continue in sin and expect to go to heaven, but Jesus will never stop loving us.

The problem is that may fit your theological position but it goes against the context of the passage. Consider theses addtional verses:

First, 8:1 defines the audience:

Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:1 HCSB

The audience is thoI think that is a cop out really, even if you were to omit the phrase who walk not after the flesh but after the Sopirit , when you read Romans 1se who are saved

The method of salvation is God's soveriegn election:

I am not familiar with the HCSB, but the Bible says in Romans 8:1 There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those that are ''supposedly'' in Christ, who are walking after their flesh, and not following the Spirit, are in danger of condemnation.

Yes, there is a textual variant here. Most versions omit the phrase KJV includes. It is only included in later less dependable manuscripts and most scholars view it as an interpolation. It appears to be an error in some Byzantine texts (which is what King James used because it was all he had available), where the copyist accidentally copied an identical phrase out of 8:4

in order that the law's requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 HCSB

It is in none of the earliest versions of both the Alexandrian and Western texts.

HCSB is the Holman. it is not in NASB, NIV, NET, RSV, etc.

This is a cop out in my opinion. Even if you omit the phrase ''who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit'' from Romans 8:1, you still cannot escape the context of the whole passage when reading Romans 8 verses 1-10

Romans 8:1-8

1 There is therefore now no more condemnation to the that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through our flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law God nor can it be.

8 So they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The whole purpose of this passage is to explain that we must not continue to be led by our own flesh, lust, and desire. But that we have to let the Spirit of God lead us into the freedom from sin that He sent his Son to give us. Yet there are those that would use 1/2 of one scripture to say just the opposite.

It isnot a cop out at all. it is somehting that needs to be wrestled with. I addressed the context above in my post. No one is arguing that believers hould be led by the Spirit as opposed to their flesh. But the discussion is whether or not people can lose their salvation.

Actually the discussion is who can separate us from the love of Christ, the answer to that question is no one or nothing. However if the question were can someone loose their salvation the answer would be yes, and the Bible make that very clear in many places. If we continue in sin we are servants of sin and not of God, and no servant of sin will inherit the Kingdom whether they had once been saved or not.

Romans 6:15-16

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 know you not, that whom you yield yourselves servant to obey, his servant you are whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness?

Anyone living in continual unrepentant sin is a servant of self and sin, not of God. Regardless if they claim Christianity or not. Living under grace does not give you the right to disobey God and His Holy Word.

What is clear in one person's eyes is not always so clear in another's. Others would maintain that the perseverance of the Saints is made clear in the scriptures. No one who holds to perseverance of the saints would say that grace is a license to sin. That is really a straw-man argument. Also, since you believe folks can lose their salvation, I assume you alo believe that once a person loses it they cannot get it back again.

[EricH]

Only we ourselves, having free will, can separate us from the love of Christ.

Agree with what you were trying to say, however even if we turn from Christ and begin to walk in sin, Jesus will still love us. Now i am not saying we can continue in sin and expect to go to heaven, but Jesus will never stop loving us.

The problem is that may fit your theological position but it goes against the context of the passage. Consider theses addtional verses:

First, 8:1 defines the audience:

Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:1 HCSB

The audience is thoI think that is a cop out really, even if you were to omit the phrase who walk not after the flesh but after the Sopirit , when you read Romans 1se who are saved

The method of salvation is God's soveriegn election:

I am not familiar with the HCSB, but the Bible says in Romans 8:1 There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those that are ''supposedly'' in Christ, who are walking after their flesh, and not following the Spirit, are in danger of condemnation.

Yes, there is a textual variant here. Most versions omit the phrase KJV includes. It is only included in later less dependable manuscripts and most scholars view it as an interpolation. It appears to be an error in some Byzantine texts (which is what King James used because it was all he had available), where the copyist accidentally copied an identical phrase out of 8:4

in order that the law's requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:4 HCSB

It is in none of the earliest versions of both the Alexandrian and Western texts.

HCSB is the Holman. it is not in NASB, NIV, NET, RSV, etc.

This is a cop out in my opinion. Even if you omit the phrase ''who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit'' from Romans 8:1, you still cannot escape the context of the whole passage when reading Romans 8 verses 1-10

Romans 8:1-8

1 There is therefore now no more condemnation to the that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through our flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law God nor can it be.

8 So they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The whole purpose of this passage is to explain that we must not continue to be led by our own flesh, lust, and desire. But that we have to let the Spirit of God lead us into the freedom from sin that He sent his Son to give us. Yet there are those that would use 1/2 of one scripture to say just the opposite.

It isnot a cop out at all. it is somehting that needs to be wrestled with. I addressed the context above in my post. No one is arguing that believers hould be led by the Spirit as opposed to their flesh. But the discussion is whether or not people can lose their salvation.

Actually the discussion is who can separate us from the love of Christ, the answer to that question is no one or nothing. However if the question were can someone loose their salvation the answer would be yes, and the Bible make that very clear in many places. If we continue in sin we are servants of sin and not of God, and no servant of sin will inherit the Kingdom whether they had once been saved or not.

Romans 6:15-16

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 know you not, that whom you yield yourselves servant to obey, his servant you are whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness?

Anyone living in continual unrepentant sin is a servant of self and sin, not of God. Regardless if they claim Christianity or not. Living under grace does not give you the right to disobey God and His Holy Word.

What is clear in one person's eyes is not always so clear in another's. Others would maintain that the perseverance of the Saints is made clear in the scriptures. No one who holds to perseverance of the saints would say that grace is a license to sin. That is really a straw-man argument. Also, since you believe folks can lose their salvation, I assume you alo believe that once a person loses it they cannot get it back again.

You assume incorrectly.

So help me understand this passage in the light of what you believe:

For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:26-27 HCSB

Or this

For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, tasted God's good word and the powers of the coming age, and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.

Hebrews 6:4-6 HCSB

If you believe these passage teach that one who is truly saved can lose their salvation, they also seem to teach that once that salvation is lost, it cannot be recovered.

[EricH]

What is clear in one person's eyes is not always so clear in another's. Others would maintain that the perseverance of the Saints is made clear in the scriptures. No one who holds to perseverance of the saints would say that grace is a license to sin. That is really a straw-man argument. Also, since you believe folks can lose their salvation, I assume you alo believe that once a person loses it they cannot get it back again.

You assume incorrectly.

So help me understand this passage in the light of what you believe:

For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:26-27 HCSB

Or this

For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, tasted God's good word and the powers of the coming age, and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.

Hebrews 6:4-6 HCSB

If you believe these passage teach that one who is truly saved can lose their salvation, they also seem to teach that once that salvation is lost, it cannot be recovered.

The first verse Hebrews 10:26-27 is a very harsh warning about continuing in sin after salvation. There are 2 points in this verse.

#1 Jesus is the only sacrifice for our sins.

#2 If we continue in sin after salvation we must at some point repent and remiss of our sins for when we got saved only our past sin were forgiven, not present and future sins as some teach.

Now as far as Hebrews 6 4-6 goes, it is also a harsh warning that there is a point we can get in our walk with Christ that if once reached we turn from Him there is not returning. However not all people who get saved are at that point, and if they turn away they can return i.e. the prodigal son.

I understand that they are harsh. But how do you deal with the statements about it being impossible for them to return to the faith?

[stacey c]

I know this is a very debateable topic. My question is. if osas is true where do we fit in all the scriptures that warn of turning away from God after once being enlightened or saved.

There are many many scriptures that talk about this.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him,"

Hebrews 10:39 "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

These verses shows that we (believers) have choices in our salvation.

#1 living by faith

#2 believing

#3 or drawing back unto perdition, and lets remember, someone cannot draw back unless they were forward to begin with.

[EricH]

What is clear in one person's eyes is not always so clear in another's. Others would maintain that the perseverance of the Saints is made clear in the scriptures. No one who holds to perseverance of the saints would say that grace is a license to sin. That is really a straw-man argument. Also, since you believe folks can lose their salvation, I assume you alo believe that once a person loses it they cannot get it back again.

You assume incorrectly.

So help me understand this passage in the light of what you believe:

For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:26-27 HCSB

Or this

For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, tasted God's good word and the powers of the coming age, and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.

Hebrews 6:4-6 HCSB

If you believe these passage teach that one who is truly saved can lose their salvation, they also seem to teach that once that salvation is lost, it cannot be recovered.

The first verse Hebrews 10:26-27 is a very harsh warning about continuing in sin after salvation. There are 2 points in this verse.

#1 Jesus is the only sacrifice for our sins.

#2 If we continue in sin after salvation we must at some point repent and remiss of our sins for when we got saved only our past sin were forgiven, not present and future sins as some teach.

Now as far as Hebrews 6 4-6 goes, it is also a harsh warning that there is a point we can get in our walk with Christ that if once reached we turn from Him there is not returning. However not all people who get saved are at that point, and if they turn away they can return i.e. the prodigal son.

I understand that they are harsh. But how do you deal with the statements about it being impossible for them to return to the faith?

I addressed that question, re-read post #27.

I guess I don't see how you explanation lines up with the wording of the text, if you interperet these passages to mean you can lose your salvation. it seems you are taking some of the passage literally, then the rest you are massaging a bit

[dcampsart]

I am not familiar with the HCSB, but the Bible says in Romans 8:1 There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those that are ''supposedly'' in Christ, who are walking after their flesh, and not following the Spirit, are in danger of condemnation.

Please realize that the last part of Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" is considered by many scholars as a "scribal error" and that chapter 8 verse 4 was copied onto the end of the original verse chapter 8 verse 1 which ends after "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Paragraphs below were extracted from commentary found at purewords.com Please note the commentary on the word condemnation as it pertains to the believer

Theologically, the omission of the last half of the verse carries a doctrinal error. To say that there is no condemnation whatsoever of any who are in Christ Jesus is to overlook the whole of scripture. In fact, we are told that it is very possible for those who are in Christ to suffer condemnation. If the Believer is walking, not after the Spirit but after the flesh, his or her works are nothing but wood, hay, and stubble. If the Believer is walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, his or her works are gold, silver, and precious stones. (1 Corinthians 3:12). Everyone's works will be tried by fire. Fleshly works will be burned and Spiritual works will endure. We are told, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15).

The context of Romans chapter 8, verses 4-10, also teaches us that faithful Christians are to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. This has to do with our Christian living. The Christian is in a constant battle between the Spirit and the flesh (Galatians 5:16-18). There is no condemnation for the Believer who is following the Holy Spirit. However, there is condemnation for those who do not follow the leading of the Spirit, but seek to follow their own flesh.

We must remember that the word condemnation not only carries the meaning of judgment, but also of disapproval. John informs his "little children" that the heart of the Believer is able to pass such condemnation or disapproval on our Christian living. "For if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." (1 John 3:20-21). Not only is there a judgment for Believers who stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:9-10) where their works will either be approved or disapproved (1 Corinthians 3:12-15). But there also can be a judgment on the Believer here which may cost them their very life if they continue in sin (Acts 5:1-10; 1 John 5:16). So, Biblically speaking, there is condemnation to those who walk after the flesh and not after the Spirit.

Thought I'd point this out.