Jews and JESUS

[Guest]

[nebula]

I always think about the number of people including the numbers of Jews and Muslims; who have been shunned from their families, stoned, persecuted, killed, executed and so forth just because they became believers in Christ. I mean I guess we could say, well whoops you didn't really need to convert to Christ there is another path as long as you were born to the right person or family tree.

I don't think so. Why would God let His Son be tortured and killed, if there was salvation without Christ?

Without going into details, I have come to believe that God has more grace than we give Him credit for.

Would God allow people into Heaven whom we deemed "unsaved"? What if He does? Will we be jealous? Or will we be thankful they weren't lost?

But is it "fair"? I recall the words to a song:

"One day every tongue will confess You are God

One day every knee will bow

Still the greatest treasure remians for those

Who gladly choose you now"

Salvation is not a reward. To consider it as such cheepens it, really.

There are other rewards we will or will not receive in Heaven depending on what kinds of lives we lived down here, and whether or not we "stored our treasures in Heaven."

I don't say this to negate the need for all to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, Savior, Messiah.

I just do not believe it is our job to tag wheat and tares. Let's just focus on the harvest and let God do the sorting, OK?

[nebula]

As for this:

Judaism and Christianity are two different faiths worshipping different God's, we must not confuse them.

It is true that the Judaism practiced now is not the same "Judaism" - or whtever they called it - before the Temple was destroyed.

However, I am hesitant to say the Jews worship a different God. I mean, if they worship the God that gave them the Torah - what other God or god is that?

There's a difference between worshipping in ignorance and with false understanding and that of worshipping an entirely different being.

What other "being" gave them the Torah? What other "being" made them a people?

That being said -

That does not change the fact that Jew's are the Chosen people of God, God took the human form of a Jew when He walked the earth, He brought His message to His people the Jew's and this will never change and neither will His prophecy of what will become of Israel. Just think if someone had told Peter or Paul, you know the Gospel that you are preaching will end up converting many of the heathens and pagan nations of Europe, including the Goths and Visigoths and Vikings and weird Celtic Pagans and so forth, I think they would have been astounded. So if we as a gentile Pagan can come to Christ, certainly it will not be out of the question that the entire Jewish people who are much closer to the True God than us Pagans were, can and will be converted to Christ.

Amen to that!

[Smalcald]

So those who practice Judaism pray to Christ, worship Him and recognize Him as God?

God is made up of three persons Smalcald. They don't believe the person of Jesus as God, but that does not mean that they worship the same God as they do recognize God the Father. Jews are not pagans, they recognize YHVH as Creator and the ONLY true God of the universe. Their blindness to Jesus does not qualify as worshipping another God.

I don't know, I mean it is probably easier to play down the divinity of Christ in an attempt to convert those who practice Judaism, but I don't think it is wise or honest to do so.

No one is downplaying the Divinity of Christ.

Any faith which does not recognize the Divinity of Our Lord and Savior is wrong AND is worshipping a different God than Christians worship.

It is not a case of worshipping a different god. It is case of blindness to full understanding of who Jesus is. If Jesus were the ONLY person in the Godhead, you would have a point. I would agree with you, but they recognize and worship the true and living God despite not understanding Jesus' true identity.

You cannot remove Christ from God and claim to worship the same God as Christians do, you simply can't; and that is 100% factually correct.

No one is doing that. The Jewish people have for nearly 2 millennia been asked to receive a Jesus that is made after the image of a Gentile religion that hates all things Jewish. Their rejection of Christ is as much their own fault as it is the fault of a church that has made Jesus distasteful to them.

I am not trying to lay fault, I would probably lay a larger "fault" if there is a fault on a corrupted Gentile Church, which as you say has often distorted Christianity to mean a hate of Jew's, at least that is how Jews recognized it and with good reason.

I guess my point was simply that we should not play around with the true nature of God, the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are the same God, which is the Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

What I meant was simply that the God of modern Judaism does not include worship of Christ as God; I don't know how that could then be the same God Christians worship?

[Smalcald]

Judaism and Christianity are two different faiths worshipping different God's, we must not confuse them.

Smalcald, that is factually and historically false.

Judaism is not a pagan religion that worships some made up deity or idol.

Jews worship the YHVH, the God of the Bible. Any other assertion is100% false. Just becaue they do not recognize Jesus as Messiah does not mean they worship another God.

So those who practice Judaism pray to Christ, worship Him and recognize Him as God? If they do they indeed are worshipping the true God, if they do not they are not worshipping the God of the bible nor are they worshipping the same God we are. Unless we want to go down the road of all paths lead to God, etc.

I don't know, I mean it is probably easier to play down the divinity of Christ in an attempt to convert those who practice Judaism, but I don't think it is wise or honest to do so. Any faith which does not recognize the Divinity of Our Lord and Savior is wrong AND is worshipping a different God than Christians worship.

You cannot remove Christ from God and claim to worship the same God as Christians do, you simply can't; and that is 100% factually correct.

Do you believe the old testament? And do you believe the GOD of the old testament is the one true GOD?

Of course I believe the entire bible, and that bible reveals One God for eternity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in both the Old and New Testaments. Remember Abraham was a true follower of Christ rejoiced to see the day of Christ on earth.

If Judaism is worshipping the same God that we are, then they already believe in Christ and we have no need to even attempt to spread the Gospel to those who practice Judaism today, or the alternative understanding is that Jesus did not come for all, that there are many paths to God and whatever works for you will work, which is the more pc version.

I don

[Smalcald]

Hmmm....so up to the time Messiah came, the Jewish people were worshipping who exactly?

(You have already quoted 'before Abraham was I AM'.)

They were worshipping the true God, the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

Have we so usurped our Jewish heritage, and strayed so far from our Jewish roots that we now regurgitate their Messiah in such an unrecognizable unpalatable Gentile form, and insist that unless they submit to 'our' version of their Messiah, then they are condemned. Do you honestly think this is G-ds heart and His method to woe His people back whom He longs to come to a place of faith in Messiah Yeshua?

Do you mean that the Divinity of Christ, that the Divinity of the Holy Spirit, that the Trinity is an "unrecognizable unpalatable Gentile form". If so, then so be it, we cannot deny the God revealed in scripture to make it "palatable" or more politically correct.

The Chief Priest tore at his clothing for the blaspheme Christ spoke when He made Himself equal to God, "we have no need to hear more, He has spoken blaspheme!" The fact is there is always going to be this underlying issue, this stumbling block concerning the divinity of Christ as the true God. However the Holy Spirit will in the end I believe convert many Jewish people to faith in this God or maybe I should say this conception of God.

I am not trying to write off the Jewish people who don't believe in Christ or to mitigate the promises of God to them and to Israel, however we do no one any help at all by trying to downplay the true divinity of Christ as God, and the divinity of the Holy Spirit as God, or to make that more palatable. We are not marketing people who try a new product when the first one does not sell.

For me maybe it is just semantics? I just don't know how we can pray to Christ and have someone else pray to a God that does not include Christ, and think we are praying to the same God? God without Christ is not the God of the bible.

I guess I should say that Judaism prays to a different conception or vision of God than we do?

[Botz]

Smalcald...Do you mean that the Divinity of Christ, that the Divinity of the Holy Spirit, that the Trinity is an "unrecognizable unpalatable Gentile form". If so, then so be it, we cannot deny the God revealed in scripture to make it "palatable" or more politically correct.

No! I mean the way in which we try to Christianise Jewish people and teach them about their Jewish Messiah from a Gentile theology that takes no account of the fact that it is we who are the unnatural branches...and they are the natural branches.

There is no question of watering down the gospel in more palatable form, or a politically correct way...I am sorry you should even derive such a possible understanding from what I posted.

I am not trying to write off the Jewish people who don't believe in Christ or to mitigate the promises of God to them and to Israel, however we do no one any help at all by trying to downplay the true divinity of Christ as God, and the divinity of the Holy Spirit as God, or to make that more palatable. We are not marketing people who try a new product when the first one does not sell.

I really don't think you get the heart of what I was saying, and I am not going to attempt to tear down straw-men.

For me maybe it is just semantics? I just don't know how we can pray to Christ and have someone else pray to a God that does not include Christ, and think we are praying to the same God? God without Christ is not the God of the bible.

It is not a question of semantics, it is a question of understanding the heart of G-d towards His people....and no one is trying to say...least of all me...that they have a 'get out clause', and can by-pass salvation through Yeshua....who as you rightly point out is a 'stumbling block'.

[kross]

Judaism and Christianity are two different faiths worshipping different God's, we must not confuse them.

Smalcald, that is factually and historically false.

Judaism is not a pagan religion that worships some made up deity or idol.

Jews worship the YHVH, the God of the Bible. Any other assertion is100% false. Just becaue they do not recognize Jesus as Messiah does not mean they worship another God.

So those who practice Judaism pray to Christ, worship Him and recognize Him as God? If they do they indeed are worshipping the true God, if they do not they are not worshipping the God of the bible nor are they worshipping the same God we are. Unless we want to go down the road of all paths lead to God, etc.

I don't know, I mean it is probably easier to play down the divinity of Christ in an attempt to convert those who practice Judaism, but I don't think it is wise or honest to do so. Any faith which does not recognize the Divinity of Our Lord and Savior is wrong AND is worshipping a different God than Christians worship.

You cannot remove Christ from God and claim to worship the same God as Christians do, you simply can't; and that is 100% factually correct.

Do you believe the old testament? And do you believe the GOD of the old testament is the one true GOD?

Of course I believe the entire bible, and that bible reveals One God for eternity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in both the Old and New Testaments. Remember Abraham was a true follower of Christ rejoiced to see the day of Christ on earth.

If Judaism is worshipping the same God that we are, then they already believe in Christ and we have no need to even attempt to spread the Gospel to those who practice Judaism today, or the alternative understanding is that Jesus did not come for all, that there are many paths to God and whatever works for you will work, which is the more pc version.

I don

[Guest shiloh357]

I guess my point was simply that we should not play around with the true nature of God, the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament are the same God, which is the Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

What I meant was simply that the God of modern Judaism does not include worship of Christ as God; I don't know how that could then be the same God Christians worship?

Again, that would ONLY make sense IF Jesus were the ONLY member of the Godhead. If there was no Father, no Holy Spirit, and only Jesus then you could make that claim.

You cannot really support that claim from the Scripture, hence the obvious lack of any biblical support for that assertion.

The apostles never claimed that unbelieving Jews were worshipping another god. Your claim simply has no basis in biblical or logical fact.

This is just something you are making up. To say that someone has to have the complete understanding of the nature God in order to qualify as praying to the true God and not some other being is blblically indefensible.

[Smalcald]

Sorry I took so long to come back to this. Before I go on I want to make sure I understand what Judaism today believes, maybe this is my problem in not understanding that correctly.

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

This link is basic facts about Judaism and their beliefs about the Messiah or Moshiach. The thing that struck me was that their view of a coming Messiah, the one they are waiting for is NOT anything like the Christ described in the New Testament.

The Moshiach

The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

This is quoted from the above link.

So when we pray to Christ as God, when we pray to the Trinity; it will never be the same as a person who is practicing Judaism views God AND even further; views the Messiah they are waiting for, who is simply a human political leader with an emphasis on human. I cannot see how when a person who is practicing Judaism sees Christians praying to Christ as God, they could ever believe that we are praying to the same God that they are?

Am I misunderstanding something or maybe that link is totally whacked, although it looked pretty solid.

I just think we can really get into some deep trouble by pretending that Judaism and Christianity are really close on issues surrounding the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity, really very fundamental beliefs; they are far far apart from what I can tell, unless once again I am really misunderstanding something?