Jews and JESUS

[Botz]

Hi Smalclad....when you put it the other way around, and describe what many in modern Judaism believe concerning what they think Christian's believe, then that is another matter.

The Messiah they describe is more in line with the L-rds second coming...many missed the boat on His first arrival, just as many in the L-rds day believed He was the Messiah and would establish His kingdom by overthrowing the Romans.

Generally any religious Jewish person sees praying to/through Yeshua as totally blasphemous.

They go futher than this and are taught in Yeshiva, and believe, that we are polytheists worshipping three gods.

In these times by the grace, timing and purpose of G-d, scales are falling from their eyes as they gather back to the land, maybe only slowly, but certainly more are seeing Yeshua as Saviour, than since the early Church.

We believe in the same G-d as the Jews, but they have been branches broken off the Olive tree, and we have been grafted in...Us because of our faith...Them because of their disbelief....but they are beginning to be grafted in again.

Spiritually speaking Judaism is our enemy, as it is against Messiah, but the Jewish people are beloved by G-d because of their fathers, and we should rejoice when we see them believe in their L-rd.

Somehow in the purposes of G-d, their rejection of their Messiah has greatly benefitted us Gentiles, but the hardness of their hearts is not a permanent affliction, although it is a mystery.

You say in your last paragraph....

I just think we can really get into some deep trouble by pretending that Judaism and Christianity are really close on issues surrounding the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity, really very fundamental beliefs; they are far far apart from what I can tell, unless once again I am really misunderstanding something?

Who is doing that? Who is pretending about these basic issues?

From what I have tried to explain...we have greatly christianized so much that originally had a totally Jewish flavour/tradition/history to it, and perhaps under the circumstances of the genesis of the Gentile Church, this was to be expected, and is alright to a degree....BUT it is often far removed from any Jewish root, and we have to be sensitive that their perception comes from a very different tradition. (Think how much richer Scripture becomes to us when we learn and understand the Jewish history and tradition behind it) That is why I think it is unhelpful to over-emphasize the Divinity of Jesus, and to promote the doctrine of the Trinity.....We should learn from the way Messiah Himself introduced who He was ever so gently, but ever so powerfully to Israel, and the impact of this revelation continues to ripple throughout the Universe.

In Him. Botz

[Guest shiloh357]

Sorry I took so long to come back to this. Before I go on I want to make sure I understand what Judaism today believes, maybe this is my problem in not understanding that correctly.

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

This link is basic facts about Judaism and their beliefs about the Messiah or Moshiach. The thing that struck me was that their view of a coming Messiah, the one they are waiting for is NOT anything like the Christ described in the New Testament.

The Moshiach

The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

Much of what you desribe above is exactly what the Bible says about Jesus. However the final part about the Messiah not being God, is simply reflective of how Jewish theology has adjusted to Christianity over the centuries. Many passages in the Bible that were interpreted as being "Messianic" were reinterpreted as a backlash to persecution in order to keep Jews from converting to Christianity.

So when we pray to Christ as God, when we pray to the Trinity; it will never be the same as a person who is practicing Judaism views God AND even further; views the Messiah they are waiting for, who is simply a human political leader with an emphasis on human. I cannot see how when a person who is practicing Judaism sees Christians praying to Christ as God, they could ever believe that we are praying to the same God that they are?

Just because their eyes are darkened as to their understanding in certain areas about God does not mean they worship a different God. There may be some areas they are not theologically equipped to understand about the true God, but that does not mean they are worshipping another deity. They are simply walking in what light they have.

I just think we can really get into some deep trouble by pretending that Judaism and Christianity are really close on issues surrounding the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity, really very fundamental beliefs; they are far far apart from what I can tell, unless once again I am really misunderstanding something?

No one said we are really chose on those issues. The point is, a deficient understanding in what the NT teaches about God, does not constitute worshipping different god.

[traveller]

When gentiles come to the saving grace of Christ, it is through the foremost knowledge of who Christ is. We are taught Jesus from the very beginning. At least most I would say, after learning of Jesus, then go back and read the first part of the bible, and discover Almighty God. I know that some Christians know the whole bible bible first, but I think that is rare.

Jews of course learned from the opposite end, and they learned very well. That they failed to recognize the Messiah is the crux of the issue, but is not the end of the story.

In other words, they learn it from beginning through Malachi, and we learn it from the gospels backwards. Based on this, I understand where Smalcald is coming from.

And I also want to thank Botz and Shiloh for the last posts. I didn't fully understand the previous posts.

[nebula]

When gentiles come to the saving grace of Christ, it is through the foremost knowledge of who Christ is. We are taught Jesus from the very beginning. At least most I would say, after learning of Jesus, then go back and read the first part of the bible, and discover Almighty God. I know that some Christians know the whole bible bible first, but I think that is rare.

Jews of course learned from the opposite end, and they learned very well. That they failed to recognize the Messiah is the crux of the issue, but is not the end of the story.

That's an interesting point, Trav.

[Smalcald]

That is why I think it is unhelpful to over-emphasize the Divinity of Jesus, and to promote the doctrine of the Trinity.....We should learn from the way Messiah Himself introduced who He was ever so gently, but ever so powerfully to Israel, and the impact of this revelation continues to ripple throughout the Universe.

Botz, this is exactly what I am talking about. What you are saying is that it is unhelpful to be honest about who Jesus IS! I don't think we should change the essentials of the Gospel based on who is hearing the Gospel.

[Smalcald]

Sorry I took so long to come back to this. Before I go on I want to make sure I understand what Judaism today believes, maybe this is my problem in not understanding that correctly.

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

This link is basic facts about Judaism and their beliefs about the Messiah or Moshiach. The thing that struck me was that their view of a coming Messiah, the one they are waiting for is NOT anything like the Christ described in the New Testament.

The Moshiach

The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

Much of what you desribe above is exactly what the Bible says about Jesus. However the final part about the Messiah not being God, is simply reflective of how Jewish theology has adjusted to Christianity over the centuries. Many passages in the Bible that were interpreted as being "Messianic" were reinterpreted as a backlash to persecution in order to keep Jews from converting to Christianity.

So when we pray to Christ as God, when we pray to the Trinity; it will never be the same as a person who is practicing Judaism views God AND even further; views the Messiah they are waiting for, who is simply a human political leader with an emphasis on human. I cannot see how when a person who is practicing Judaism sees Christians praying to Christ as God, they could ever believe that we are praying to the same God that they are?

Just because their eyes are darkened as to their understanding in certain areas about God does not mean they worship a different God. There may be some areas they are not theologically equipped to understand about the true God, but that does not mean they are worshipping another deity. They are simply walking in what light they have.

I just think we can really get into some deep trouble by pretending that Judaism and Christianity are really close on issues surrounding the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity, really very fundamental beliefs; they are far far apart from what I can tell, unless once again I am really misunderstanding something?

No one said we are really chose on those issues. The point is, a deficient understanding in what the NT teaches about God, does not constitute worshipping different god.

Everything you said could be applied to Islam.

Of course rejecting Christ and the New Testament constitute worshipping a different God, we worship Christ, and any God that does not include Christ is not the God we are worshipping. This is PC nonensense.

Does that mean the Holy Spirit will not bring the Jewish people to salvation through a revelation of Christ? No, but right now we must remain firm that the only true God is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, period end of story.

[Smalcald]

I am with you on what you said, that is, I understand.

The Jews believe in THE CHRIST. That belief is part of their entire foundation. They did not recognize JESUS as being their CHRIST. They will at HIS second coming.

Hi Kross,

From what I can tell that is not true. Modern Judaism does not believe in THE CHRIST or in a future Christ who is part of the Godhead. They believe in a human leader who will guide them politically and then die a human death. The Messiah that modern Judaism is waiting for has very little in common with the True Christ revealed in the New Testament who died for our sins and sits at the Right Hand of God; who has always existed; who all things were created through. Judaism does not recognize their Messiah as doing those things or being that God; he is a powerful guy sent by God to lead the Jewish people, which is great, but that would not be anything like how Jesus is described in the Bible.

I would suggest that you read and study Judaism directly to find out what they really believe about the Messiah and God, looking at Jewish sources, not Christian.

[traveller]

But - Smalcald - they someday WILL. The Lord will remove the veil and their spiritual eyes will be open.

[Smalcald]

But - Smalcald - they someday WILL. The Lord will remove the veil and their spiritual eyes will be open.

Yes I hope nobody thought I was disagreeing with that. And not just someday, many Jews believe in Christ today, we do them a disservice in my opinion to focus only on unconverted Jew's and ignore the Messianic Christians who need support and encouragement today from us.

For me I guess this is just more definitional, more about Christians and the importance of us holding strong to what we believe, and this may mean that we have to disagree with our friends who practice Judaism about very basic things such as the nature of God and the Messiah.

I know Shiloh is focused on my saying that they are praying to a different God, after much thought maybe that is to strong, but I don

[traveller]

But - Smalcald - they someday WILL. The Lord will remove the veil and their spiritual eyes will be open.

Yes I hope nobody thought I was disagreeing with that. And not just someday, many Jews believe in Christ today, we do them a disservice in my opinion to focus only on unconverted Jew's and ignore the Messianic Christians who need support and encouragement today from us.

Amen!

For me I guess this is just more definitional, more about Christians and the importance of us holding strong to what we believe, and this may mean that we have to disagree with our friends who practice Judaism about very basic things such as the nature of God and the Messiah.

I know Shiloh is focused on my saying that they are praying to a different God, after much thought maybe that is to strong, but I don