Jews and JESUS

[Botz]

Hi Smalclad....when you put it the other way around, and describe what many in modern Judaism believe concerning what they think Christian's believe, then that is another matter.

The Messiah they describe is more in line with the L-rds second coming...many missed the boat on His first arrival, just as many in the L-rds day believed He was the Messiah and would establish His kingdom by overthrowing the Romans.

Generally any religious Jewish person sees praying to/through Yeshua as totally blasphemous.

They go futher than this and are taught in Yeshiva, and believe, that we are polytheists worshipping three gods.

In these times by the grace, timing and purpose of G-d, scales are falling from their eyes as they gather back to the land, maybe only slowly, but certainly more are seeing Yeshua as Saviour, than since the early Church.

We believe in the same G-d as the Jews, but they have been branches broken off the Olive tree, and we have been grafted in...Us because of our faith...Them because of their disbelief....but they are beginning to be grafted in again.

Spiritually speaking Judaism is our enemy, as it is against Messiah, but the Jewish people are beloved by G-d because of their fathers, and we should rejoice when we see them believe in their L-rd.

Somehow in the purposes of G-d, their rejection of their Messiah has greatly benefitted us Gentiles, but the hardness of their hearts is not a permanent affliction, although it is a mystery.

You say in your last paragraph....

I just think we can really get into some deep trouble by pretending that Judaism and Christianity are really close on issues surrounding the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity, really very fundamental beliefs; they are far far apart from what I can tell, unless once again I am really misunderstanding something?

Who is doing that? Who is pretending about these basic issues?

From what I have tried to explain...we have greatly christianized so much that originally had a totally Jewish flavour/tradition/history to it, and perhaps under the circumstances of the genesis of the Gentile Church, this was to be expected, and is alright to a degree....BUT it is often far removed from any Jewish root, and we have to be sensitive that their perception comes from a very different tradition. (Think how much richer Scripture becomes to us when we learn and understand the Jewish history and tradition behind it) That is why I think it is unhelpful to over-emphasize the Divinity of Jesus, and to promote the doctrine of the Trinity.....We should learn from the way Messiah Himself introduced who He was ever so gently, but ever so powerfully to Israel, and the impact of this revelation continues to ripple throughout the Universe.

In Him. Botz

That is why I think it is unhelpful to over-emphasize the Divinity of Jesus, and to promote the doctrine of the Trinity.....We should learn from the way Messiah Himself introduced who He was ever so gently, but ever so powerfully to Israel, and the impact of this revelation continues to ripple throughout the Universe.

Botz, this is exactly what I am talking about. What you are saying is that it is unhelpful to be honest about who Jesus IS! I don't think we should change the essentials of the Gospel based on who is hearing the Gospel.

Smalcald...you are changing totally the emphasis of what I have been trying to get across, and just do not see my heart on the issue. Do you really think what I have said implies that we should be dishonest in our approach to Jewish people in general? What I am at pains to point out, and what you just don't seem to grasp, is that we need to put ourselves in the shoes of Jewish people, and understand that they have been on the receiving end of so much persecution and hatred from Christians and many have a hostile and abhorent perception of Christian theology...so be sensitive how you approach them...rather than being a martyr to your theology.

If you want to get milk from a cow, it is better to milk it than to kick it.

1Corinthians 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

[EricH]

Hi Smalclad....when you put it the other way around, and describe what many in modern Judaism believe concerning what they think Christian's believe, then that is another matter.

The Messiah they describe is more in line with the L-rds second coming...many missed the boat on His first arrival, just as many in the L-rds day believed He was the Messiah and would establish His kingdom by overthrowing the Romans.

Generally any religious Jewish person sees praying to/through Yeshua as totally blasphemous.

They go futher than this and are taught in Yeshiva, and believe, that we are polytheists worshipping three gods.

In these times by the grace, timing and purpose of G-d, scales are falling from their eyes as they gather back to the land, maybe only slowly, but certainly more are seeing Yeshua as Saviour, than since the early Church.

We believe in the same G-d as the Jews, but they have been branches broken off the Olive tree, and we have been grafted in...Us because of our faith...Them because of their disbelief....but they are beginning to be grafted in again.

Spiritually speaking Judaism is our enemy, as it is against Messiah, but the Jewish people are beloved by G-d because of their fathers, and we should rejoice when we see them believe in their L-rd.

Somehow in the purposes of G-d, their rejection of their Messiah has greatly benefitted us Gentiles, but the hardness of their hearts is not a permanent affliction, although it is a mystery.

You say in your last paragraph....

I just think we can really get into some deep trouble by pretending that Judaism and Christianity are really close on issues surrounding the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity, really very fundamental beliefs; they are far far apart from what I can tell, unless once again I am really misunderstanding something?

Who is doing that? Who is pretending about these basic issues?

From what I have tried to explain...we have greatly christianized so much that originally had a totally Jewish flavour/tradition/history to it, and perhaps under the circumstances of the genesis of the Gentile Church, this was to be expected, and is alright to a degree....BUT it is often far removed from any Jewish root, and we have to be sensitive that their perception comes from a very different tradition. (Think how much richer Scripture becomes to us when we learn and understand the Jewish history and tradition behind it) That is why I think it is unhelpful to over-emphasize the Divinity of Jesus, and to promote the doctrine of the Trinity.....We should learn from the way Messiah Himself introduced who He was ever so gently, but ever so powerfully to Israel, and the impact of this revelation continues to ripple throughout the Universe.

In Him. Botz

That is why I think it is unhelpful to over-emphasize the Divinity of Jesus, and to promote the doctrine of the Trinity.....We should learn from the way Messiah Himself introduced who He was ever so gently, but ever so powerfully to Israel, and the impact of this revelation continues to ripple throughout the Universe.

Botz, this is exactly what I am talking about. What you are saying is that it is unhelpful to be honest about who Jesus IS! I don't think we should change the essentials of the Gospel based on who is hearing the Gospel.

Smalcald...you are changing totally the emphasis of what I have been trying to get across, and just do not see my heart on the issue. Do you really think what I have said implies that we should be dishonest in our approach to Jewish people in general? What I am at pains to point out, and what you just don't seem to grasp, is that we need to put ourselves in the shoes of Jewish people, and understand that they have been on the receiving end of so much persecution and hatred from Christians and many have a hostile and abhorent perception of Christian theology...so be sensitive how you approach them...rather than being a martyr to your theology.

If you want to get milk from a cow, it is better to milk it than to kick it.

1Corinthians 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

Which is probably a good approach to take with everyone with whom we disagree, even when we are frustrated with them:

The Lord's slave must not quarrel, but must be gentle to everyone, able to teach, and patient, instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance to know the truth.

2 Timothy 2:24-25 HCSB

[Smalcald]

Hi Smalclad....when you put it the other way around, and describe what many in modern Judaism believe concerning what they think Christian's believe, then that is another matter.

The Messiah they describe is more in line with the L-rds second coming...many missed the boat on His first arrival, just as many in the L-rds day believed He was the Messiah and would establish His kingdom by overthrowing the Romans.

Generally any religious Jewish person sees praying to/through Yeshua as totally blasphemous.

They go futher than this and are taught in Yeshiva, and believe, that we are polytheists worshipping three gods.

In these times by the grace, timing and purpose of G-d, scales are falling from their eyes as they gather back to the land, maybe only slowly, but certainly more are seeing Yeshua as Saviour, than since the early Church.

We believe in the same G-d as the Jews, but they have been branches broken off the Olive tree, and we have been grafted in...Us because of our faith...Them because of their disbelief....but they are beginning to be grafted in again.

Spiritually speaking Judaism is our enemy, as it is against Messiah, but the Jewish people are beloved by G-d because of their fathers, and we should rejoice when we see them believe in their L-rd.

Somehow in the purposes of G-d, their rejection of their Messiah has greatly benefitted us Gentiles, but the hardness of their hearts is not a permanent affliction, although it is a mystery.

You say in your last paragraph....

I just think we can really get into some deep trouble by pretending that Judaism and Christianity are really close on issues surrounding the Divinity of Christ and the Trinity, really very fundamental beliefs; they are far far apart from what I can tell, unless once again I am really misunderstanding something?

Who is doing that? Who is pretending about these basic issues?

From what I have tried to explain...we have greatly christianized so much that originally had a totally Jewish flavour/tradition/history to it, and perhaps under the circumstances of the genesis of the Gentile Church, this was to be expected, and is alright to a degree....BUT it is often far removed from any Jewish root, and we have to be sensitive that their perception comes from a very different tradition. (Think how much richer Scripture becomes to us when we learn and understand the Jewish history and tradition behind it) That is why I think it is unhelpful to over-emphasize the Divinity of Jesus, and to promote the doctrine of the Trinity.....We should learn from the way Messiah Himself introduced who He was ever so gently, but ever so powerfully to Israel, and the impact of this revelation continues to ripple throughout the Universe.

In Him. Botz

That is why I think it is unhelpful to over-emphasize the Divinity of Jesus, and to promote the doctrine of the Trinity.....We should learn from the way Messiah Himself introduced who He was ever so gently, but ever so powerfully to Israel, and the impact of this revelation continues to ripple throughout the Universe.

Botz, this is exactly what I am talking about. What you are saying is that it is unhelpful to be honest about who Jesus IS! I don't think we should change the essentials of the Gospel based on who is hearing the Gospel.

Smalcald...you are changing totally the emphasis of what I have been trying to get across, and just do not see my heart on the issue. Do you really think what I have said implies that we should be dishonest in our approach to Jewish people in general? What I am at pains to point out, and what you just don't seem to grasp, is that we need to put ourselves in the shoes of Jewish people, and understand that they have been on the receiving end of so much persecution and hatred from Christians and many have a hostile and abhorent perception of Christian theology...so be sensitive how you approach them...rather than being a martyr to your theology.

If you want to get milk from a cow, it is better to milk it than to kick it.

1Corinthians 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

Yes I would agree with that totally.

I think we talked about it earlier or maybe even on another thread but I am of the opinion that gentile Christians should possibly not witness to Jews who are devout; (most are not, so we still have much we can do). I feel that given the horrible history it would be much more effective for Jew's who are Christians to lead the effort to evangelize the Jew's who practice Judaism. I think gentile Christians can effectively focus on the majority of Jews in the US who are totally secular and do not practice Judaism.

That is just my opinion and I know many will disagree. But yes I am not in disagreement about how we approach people who practice Judaism. I do think Christians should learn about what modern Judaism actually teaches and what most Jews today actually believe about both Judaism and Christianity before we go blasting in.

For example I was always taught from other Christians, not from Jews mind you, that Judaism was simply Christianity without Jesus Christ, that they believed that Jesus Christ was still coming. But the more I read and learn about what Judaism teaches and is practiced today, that simply is not true.

A Jewish friend of mine who is conservative put it this way, he said, look you view the whole Torah through the twisted lens of Jesus as shown in the New Testament, we do not read it through that lens; thus we do not read the bible in the same way at all.

[Botz]

Hi Smalcald....

I think we talked about it earlier or maybe even on another thread but I am of the opinion that gentile Christians should possibly not witness to Jews who are devout; (most are not, so we still have much we can do). I feel that given the horrible history it would be much more effective for Jew's who are Christians to lead the effort to evangelize the Jew's who practice Judaism. I think gentile Christians can effectively focus on the majority of Jews in the US who are totally secular and do not practice Judaism.

I don't think we should ever be selective in our witnessing...just aware of where some groups of people might be coming from and demonstrate the love of G-d even if we don't fully understand or appreciate their heritage or religious background.

In Judaism, many people have many opinions about the same subject, especially as there are various schools that range from the Liberal to the Orthodox, and sometimes it is amazing how little they know their Scriptures. Christian Believers should never be intimidated by what they think Jewish people know, but rather sensitive to them as individuals as they feel G-d leading them.

There are several counter-missionary groups in operation these days, that seek to warn Jewish people across the board of the wily intentions of deceptive Christians who use any means to promote Jesus...they are especially vorciferous against Messianic Believers, and Gentiles who try to approach them using Jewish terminology...they see it as deception.

We do well never to water down the gospel...but to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

In agape love. Botz. Ps...If I seemed a bit frustrated I apologize, it was only for a moment, and I don't hang on to it.

[Tehilah Ba'Aretz]

One of the best things a Christian can do is to be a Christian. You will not deceive a Jewish person into changing their beliefs anyway. Talking like a Jewish person won't help at all. One of my friends, an Orthodox Jewish man, says, "Don't give me a tract, be one!" He will listen you me, he allows my tour groups to ask any questions they want, he even is willing to talk about the Jewish theology of Messiah. In fact, even though he says that he does not accept that Jesus is the Messiah, it is clear that he has no idea at all about the person we know as Jesus. He rejects a myth that has been created by Christians over the centuries. The fake Jesus that Moshe repudiates is also on my bad list. I wouldn't follow a messiah that behaves like many Christians say he behaves either.

[Smalcald]

Yes I agree with both of you, thanks for the input.

There are several counter-missionary groups in operation these days, that seek to warn Jewish people across the board of the wily intentions of deceptive Christians who use any means to promote Jesus...they are especially vorciferous against Messianic Believers, and Gentiles who try to approach them using Jewish terminology...they see it as deception.

I thought this was interesting. On the topic of Messianic believers, are most Messianic believers ethnically Jewish? I had thought that they were, if so to me it would seem that they really really need our support if their own people are so dead set against them.

I have found this among Arab and Persian Christians who feel totally isolated and left alone among a sea of Muslims. Some of our evangelism in Islamic countries sometimes ignores the Christians who are already there and who must bear the brunt of persecution after we western Christians leave.

One of my friends, an Orthodox Jewish man, says, "Don't give me a tract, be one!"

I really like that this is truth.

Peace,

[LIVN4JC]

Excellent questions kross

I am also trying to learn more about Israel, Jews and where what fits in... cannot wait for the replies.

Oh and I'll sit here in the "ignorant corner" and wait for the replies

May I please join you. I am looking forward to knowing more on this. Blessings.

[Botz]

Yes I agree with both of you, thanks for the input.

There are several counter-missionary groups in operation these days, that seek to warn Jewish people across the board of the wily intentions of deceptive Christians who use any means to promote Jesus...they are especially vorciferous against Messianic Believers, and Gentiles who try to approach them using Jewish terminology...they see it as deception.

I thought this was interesting. On the topic of Messianic believers, are most Messianic believers ethnically Jewish? I had thought that they were, if so to me it would seem that they really really need our support if their own people are so dead set against them.

I have found this among Arab and Persian Christians who feel totally isolated and left alone among a sea of Muslims. Some of our evangelism in Islamic countries sometimes ignores the Christians who are already there and who must bear the brunt of persecution after we western Christians leave.

One of my friends, an Orthodox Jewish man, says, "Don't give me a tract, be one!"

I really like that this is truth.

Peace,

My experience in the UK has been that some so-called Messianic Fellowships, comprise of only a couple of Jewish Believers, while the rest are Gentile Believers. Sometimes they try to overdo it a bit and adopt Jewish names, and talk of nothing but Messianic Judaism, which can be devisive and tiresome...and there is an almost sentimental attachment to all things Jewish.

In Israel it is vastly different, and most Messianic Kehilahs/Fellowships are made up of Jewish Believers in Messiah, many of which are now Sabras/indigenous Jews, with just a scattering of Gentiles passing through their doors...it is these groups that struggle the most with opposition from hard-line religious Jews, and it is these groups that most need our support in prayer and finance and whatever way we feel constrained to help...because they are possibly the most effective witness amongst their own people, and quite often to the Arabs as well.

Bear in mind that you should always check out any group that you want to be involved with, either up close and personal, or from a distance, because there are some strange teachings that go around, and some of what I call, the subversive elements of Western Evangelical/Charismatic teaching have made deep inroads...eg tithing for self-gain/spiritual pantomine/fantasy experiences.

[Guest shiloh357]

My experience in the UK has been that some so-called Messianic Fellowships, comprise of only a couple of Jewish Believers, while the rest are Gentile Believers. Sometimes they try to overdo it a bit and adopt Jewish names, and talk of nothing but Messianic Judaism, which can be devisive and tiresome...and there is an almost sentimental attachment to all things Jewish.

That is very similar to what I have experienced in the US. There are many well meaning Gentile believers who do tend go a bit overboard and try to be more Jewish than Jewish people. They are more zealous for the festivals and customs, but this is because it is new and exciting for them, and after a few months, they tend to mellow out and learn how to balance things out so that they are less offensive to Christians who choose not to participate.

In Israel it is vastly different, and most Messianic Kehilahs/Fellowships are made up of Jewish Believers in Messiah, many of which are now Sabras/indigenous Jews, with just a scattering of Gentiles passing through their doors...it is these groups that struggle the most with opposition from hard-line religious Jews, and it is these groups that most need our support in prayer and finance and whatever way we feel constrained to help...because they are possibly the most effective witness amongst their own people, and quite often to the Arabs as well.

Exactly. Very well said. The Jewish/Arab sector of the Body of Christ needs our support and prayer as they try to reach their people. It is a very dangerous region in which to be a believer in Jesus. They struggle against legal and religious opposition and in the Muslim culture they are at risk of being killed for their faith.

Bear in mind that you should always check out any group that you want to be involved with, either up close and personal, or from a distance, because there are some strange teachings that go around, and some of what I call, the subversive elements of Western Evangelical/Charismatic teaching have made deep inroads...eg tithing for self-gain/spiritual pantomine/fantasy experiences.

Very true. Even the Mormons and JWs are in Israel trying win converts.

[Smalcald]

So in Isreal we have Morman's, JW's, Evengelical Christians, Messianic Jew's and some others all trying to convert one Jew, no wonder they think we are a bunch of nuts.