JESUS birth story

[Massorite]

I was e-mailed this question which I have never faced before. I gave an answer which amounted to saying what i thought would allow for the apparent discrepancy, based in what I understand.

So, what do you understand?

Luke tells of the annunciation, Caesars Decree of a census sending Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem, the birth in the manger because of no room in the inn, the Shepherds being told of the birth by the angels. Then it says the child was circumcised on the 8th day, at at time of purification (33 days according to Lev. 12:2-6) Mary, Joseph and the child went to Jerusalem to offer the sacrifice for purification. They met Simeon and Anna there. Luke 2:39 "And when they had performed all things according to Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee their own city Nazareth.

Matt 2: 8-13The wise men were sent to Bethlehem, came to the house where the young child and mother were, gave gifts, then returned to their home a different route because of being warned not to return to Herod.

Joseph was then told to take Mother & child and flee to Egypt until they are told king Herod is no longer a threat. This brings true prophesy "Out of Egypt have I called my son".

My question is how can Mary and Joseph go to Jerusalem about 33 days after Jesus' birth, do purification, meet Simeon, and Anna and return to Nazareth. Then also still be in Bethlehem when the child is about years old to meet the Wise men and receive their gifts?

This one has pondered me for many years. Care to shed some light on it?

Because Jesus wasn't 2 years old when The wise men came. We know that the bible says that Jesus was to be born in Bethlehem so what does the bible say? "Unto you a Saviour is born" This was spoken to the Shepperd's in the field on the day that Jesus was born and they went to Bethlehem and found the new born Jesus. The wise men also went to Bethlehem to find Jesus when He was a new born. But after 2 years and the wise men did not come back to Herod that is when he ordered the killing of all who were 2 years old.

[Botz]

Shiloh...they went to Passover at Jerusalem 'every year'. I don't know why you skip to 12 years..I did not say or imply that.

I did not say you implied that. I am making the point, that Luke 2:41 is not part of the birth narrative. Jesus most likely born during Succot. I skip to twelve years because Luke 2:41 begins there.

To me it is as though he is taking no chances and killing any child that seems to fit the bill....they might have said it was a year ago...therefore Herod is fairly confident that by killing all the children of two and under Jesus will not be overlooked.

I agree. It is important to note though that in ancient Israel, a child was considered a year old at birth. Meaning, that "two years old" would not be the same as we reckon such today.

It is more likely that the wisemen visited Jesus within the same week of His birth, not two years after He was born.

Again I did not say luke 2:41 was part of the birth narrative...I simply used it to show that when you take that Scripture into consideration, and then flip back to Matthew 2 you can understand that their family made yearly trips to Jerusalem for the passover...and that is why the Magi would search for Jesus again at Bethlehem...not at the time of His birth, but at another time when the family went up to Jerusalem.

I had presumed it was in the same week also...but cannot tie up the two accounts if that is the case....what is possible is that if Jesus was born as you suggest during Succoth, then the family returned to Bethlehem at Passover which would have been several months down the line.

..............................

Massorite....I doubt that Herod would have been that patient!

[nebula]

I think you have to understand the two narratives in the context of different time zones...Jewish biblical writing often consolidates events to such an extent that we are prone to mis-interpret what is written because we look for the minutiae when we have been given a broad synopsis....this is particularly true in the gospels, where one writer might leave out much that another writer includes, and it can be confusing trying to correlate them.

My understanding, actually, has always taken this into account.

When reading between Kings and Chronicles, for instance, you will notice times when one account bypasses events - or even a king or two - that the other mentions. One text will say "his son" but in the other account that man is the guy's grandson. I have looked at the two accounts between Matthew and Luke the same way.

Luke's account completely bypasses the visit by the Magi and the flight to Egypt. It could be that Mary and Joseph retured to Bethlehem (considering that Mary was pregnant before they were married, they may have wanted to raise Jesus somewhere where He wouldn't have been regarded by the community as an illigitimate?). But then the warning came and they fled to Egypt, and then returned to Israel after Herod died. But note that in Matthew's account, when they returned from Egypt, it indicates that they were not originally planning on returning to Nazereth - they only went there after having been given another warning dream. Bethelehem is too close to Jerusalem; Nazereth was not so close.

So, when I read Luke's account, I read it the way I read the missing parts between Kings and Chronicles....

"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they [returned to Bethelehem, fled to Egypt when Herod tried to have Jesus killed, returned to Israel after Herod died, but having been warned in a dream they] returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazereth."

[Botz]

I think you have to understand the two narratives in the context of different time zones...Jewish biblical writing often consolidates events to such an extent that we are prone to mis-interpret what is written because we look for the minutiae when we have been given a broad synopsis....this is particularly true in the gospels, where one writer might leave out much that another writer includes, and it can be confusing trying to correlate them.

My understanding, actually, has always taken this into account.

When reading between Kings and Chronicles, for instance, you will notice times when one account bypasses events - or even a king or two - that the other mentions. One text will say "his son" but in the other account that man is the guy's grandson. I have looked at the two accounts between Matthew and Luke the same way.

Luke's account completely bypasses the visit by the Magi and the flight to Egypt. It could be that Mary and Joseph retured to Bethlehem (considering that Mary was pregnant before they were married, they may have wanted to raise Jesus somewhere where He wouldn't have been regarded by the community as an illigitimate?). But then the warning came and they fled to Egypt, and then returned to Israel after Herod died. But note that in Matthew's account, when they returned from Egypt, it indicates that they were not originally planning on returning to Nazereth - they only went there after having been given another warning dream. Bethelehem is too close to Jerusalem; Nazereth was not so close.

So, when I read Luke's account, I read it the way I read the missing parts between Kings and Chronicles....

"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they [returned to Bethelehem, fled to Egypt when Herod tried to have Jesus killed, returned to Israel after Herod died, but having been warned in a dream they] returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazereth."

Hi Nebula.

I think most of us realise the way Scripture is viewed from different angles by different writers, its just that it can take us by surprise sometimes ( at least it does me ), especially the way one writer does not record the same events, and uses a different time frame.

I don't think there is any suggestion of Joseph and Mary wanting to raise Jesus anywhere else because of fear of reproach.

The L-rd had specifically spoken to both of them regarding the conception. Matthew especially gives a lovely account of this righteous man Joseph that we know so little about, and is crammed with the times G-d spoke to him in dreams and through angels. In fact even as Joseph was righteously weighing up the possibilities of 'quietly' breaking off their betrothal an angel appeared and gave him the courage and conviction to proceed as normal.

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying,

[nebula]

I don't think there is any suggestion of Joseph and Mary wanting to raise Jesus anywhere else because of fear of reproach.

You are right - that was just a guess on my part.