I chose JESUS

[OneLight]

By the way, I never said GOD caused man's sin. I said HE planned for it, intended it, ordained it to be so. This does not deny man's responsibility for what he does. But GOD did intend that this creation be for the glory of the sacrifice of JESUS, at that plan was in effect before GOD created anything. So it did have to be as it is in order for that to occur.

If God did not cause man to sin, as you are saying to defuse your statement, then explain your meaning of intended, which the dictionary states:

purposed; designed; intentional; to have in mind; plan; to design for a specific purpose; to have in mind for a particular use; to signify or mean; to have a design or purpose in mind; Deliberate; future.

And how you meant ordained, where the dictionary states:

to invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on; to prearrange unalterably; predestine; fixed or established especially by order or command.

By your own choice of words, you still believe God intended and ordained it to happen, which in turn means that He caused man to sin. No stepping around what you continue to say.

GOD sent evil spirits, lying spirits, hardened the hearts of men, controlled the hearts of the kings, and directed the course of human history from the time of the flood until now.

Can you provide scripture to back up these statements? Don't want your explanation of your beliefs, just scripture, thank you.

[OneLight]

But, when one person chooses to declare the other demonic or to call into question the salvation of those who believe in the opposit doctrin, that person declares himself to be all knowing and exalts himslef to the position of a god.

No one who believes God to be ultimate facilitator of man's sin is teaching the Bible, much less true biblical Christianity. No TRUE Christian believes that God is designed the world to be sinful, that the world we see is exactly what God intended to be. All true Christians will reject with full and utter contempt and disgust, your extremist teachings

1 Corinthians 2:6-16

Spiritual Wisdom

However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written:

[larryt]

WOW. My Bible says that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). Wouldn't He be respecting the ones He has chosen for salvation more than those that He so called chose for hell??? God Choosing people to go to hell??? That is the most ridiculous doctrine that I have ever heard of!

God is no respecter of persons in that He chooses based on His own good pleasure and not on some quality in the person being chosen.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

LT

[OneLight]

Romans 10:13

For

[jehovah Nissi]

WOW. My Bible says that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). Wouldn't He be respecting the ones He has chosen for salvation more than those that He so called chose for hell??? God Choosing people to go to hell??? That is the most ridiculous doctrine that I have ever heard of!

God is no respecter of persons in that He chooses based on His own good pleasure and not on some quality in the person being chosen.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

LT

And His "good pleasure" is that none perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Obviously that verse doesn't convince you guys that the doctrine that you are following is from the devil himself...and no kross...this is not the first time I've heard this doctrine...I just marvel every time I see someone actually taken away with this doctrine. As far as the predestination verses above...I believe that Shiloh has done an amazing job explaining those verses. I still stand that God is not a respecter of persons in that He gives everyone an equal chance to receive salvation because that is what that verse in Acts 10:34 is referring to when Peter sees that the Gentiles can receive the gift as well. Then it goes on to say in verse 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." It has nothing to do with the quality of the person...it's not of works lest any man should boast. Everyone...from "every nation" has a chance at salvation...you would have to twist God's word too much to say anything different, and that is exactly what this doctrine has done. Seems to me that you guys are pretty fixed on what you believe so I guess it's no bother arguing it anymore...I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Peace,

J

[kross]

By the way, I never said GOD caused man's sin. I said HE planned for it, intended it, ordained it to be so. This does not deny man's responsibility for what he does. But GOD did intend that this creation be for the glory of the sacrifice of JESUS, at that plan was in effect before GOD created anything. So it did have to be as it is in order for that to occur.

If God did not cause man to sin, as you are saying to defuse your statement, then explain your meaning of intended, which the dictionary states:

purposed; designed; intentional; to have in mind; plan; to design for a specific purpose; to have in mind for a particular use; to signify or mean; to have a design or purpose in mind; Deliberate; future.

And how you meant ordained, where the dictionary states:

to invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on; to prearrange unalterably; predestine; fixed or established especially by order or command.

By your own choice of words, you still believe God intended and ordained it to happen, which in turn means that He caused man to sin. No stepping around what you continue to say.

GOD sent evil spirits, lying spirits, hardened the hearts of men, controlled the hearts of the kings, and directed the course of human history from the time of the flood until now.

Can you provide scripture to back up these statements? Don't want your explanation of your beliefs, just scripture, thank you.

For you? I will be happy to.

GOD put a Lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets of Ahab (1Kings 22:22), HE sent an evil spirit to Saul (1Sam 16:14), and a demon to buffet Paul (2Cor 12:7), GOD sent an evil spirit (Jud 9:23)

Romans 9:18 says HE hardens hearts, as does the story of Pharoah in Romans 9 and Exodus.

Prov. 21:1 tells us that GOD controls the hearts of the kings and there are many scriptures that tell us that HE establishes authorities and governments and who wins wars and who looses.

I hope those are enough to point out that this is what the scriptures say. If you need more, there are dozens.

HIS Peace to you.

[kross]

WOW. My Bible says that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). Wouldn't He be respecting the ones He has chosen for salvation more than those that He so called chose for hell??? God Choosing people to go to hell??? That is the most ridiculous doctrine that I have ever heard of!

God is no respecter of persons in that He chooses based on His own good pleasure and not on some quality in the person being chosen.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

LT

And His "good pleasure" is that none perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Obviously that verse doesn't convince you guys that the doctrine that you are following is from the devil himself...and no kross...this is not the first time I've heard this doctrine...I just marvel every time I see someone actually taken away with this doctrine. As far as the predestination verses above...I believe that Shiloh has done an amazing job explaining those verses. I still stand that God is not a respecter of persons in that He gives everyone an equal chance to receive salvation because that is what that verse in Acts 10:34 is referring to when Peter sees that the Gentiles can receive the gift as well. Then it goes on to say in verse 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." It has nothing to do with the quality of the person...it's not of works lest any man should boast. Everyone...from "every nation" has a chance at salvation...you would have to twist God's word too much to say anything different, and that is exactly what this doctrine has done. Seems to me that you guys are pretty fixed on what you believe so I guess it's no bother arguing it anymore...I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Peace,

J

Argueing is pointless anyways. There is no reason people can not voice opposing opinions without it becoming an arguement or degrading to the point of calling each other names.

[kross]

By the way, I never said GOD caused man's sin. I said HE planned for it, intended it, ordained it to be so. This does not deny man's responsibility for what he does. But GOD did intend that this creation be for the glory of the sacrifice of JESUS, at that plan was in effect before GOD created anything. So it did have to be as it is in order for that to occur.

If God did not cause man to sin, as you are saying to defuse your statement, then explain your meaning of intended, which the dictionary states:

purposed; designed; intentional; to have in mind; plan; to design for a specific purpose; to have in mind for a particular use; to signify or mean; to have a design or purpose in mind; Deliberate; future.

And how you meant ordained, where the dictionary states:

to invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on; to prearrange unalterably; predestine; fixed or established especially by order or command.

By your own choice of words, you still believe God intended and ordained it to happen, which in turn means that He caused man to sin. No stepping around what you continue to say.

GOD sent evil spirits, lying spirits, hardened the hearts of men, controlled the hearts of the kings, and directed the course of human history from the time of the flood until now.

Can you provide scripture to back up these statements? Don't want your explanation of your beliefs, just scripture, thank you.

In that GOD created the world with full knowledge of what would happen, and that HE put all the ingredients together that caused that outcome, GOD put into place all the things that resulted in sin entering creation. IN that HE knew before HE created anything, exactly how HIS creation would turn out, it would be difficult to say HE did not intend things to be what they are.

Human beings may put salt in a glass and water, stir it up and expect the salt to stay separated from the water, GOD does not put ingredients into a creation without knowing what would result. HIS knowing what his creation would be and putting just the right ingredients in place for it to be exactly what it is does not mean HE caused sin to happen. It does mean that HE intended it to happen. GOD is not a man that HE should not see what HIS creation will be.

Actually I just read where Dave123 has a post "bare permission" is unbiblical in which he really does a great job of explaining these terms and ideas very well.

[kross]

But, when one person chooses to declare the other demonic or to call into question the salvation of those who believe in the opposit doctrin, that person declares himself to be all knowing and exalts himslef to the position of a god.

No one who believes God to be ultimate facilitator of man's sin is teaching the Bible, much less true biblical Christianity. No TRUE Christian believes that God is designed the world to be sinful, that the world we see is exactly what God intended to be. All true Christians will reject with full and utter contempt and disgust, your extremist teachings

1 Corinthians 2:6-16

Spiritual Wisdom

However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written:

[larryt]

And His "good pleasure" is that none perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Obviously that verse doesn't convince you guys that the doctrine that you are following is from the devil himself...and no kross...this is not the first time I've heard this doctrine...I just marvel every time I see someone actually taken away with this doctrine. As far as the predestination verses above...I believe that Shiloh has done an amazing job explaining those verses. I still stand that God is not a respecter of persons in that He gives everyone an equal chance to receive salvation because that is what that verse in Acts 10:34 is referring to when Peter sees that the Gentiles can receive the gift as well. Then it goes on to say in verse 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." It has nothing to do with the quality of the person...it's not of works lest any man should boast. Everyone...from "every nation" has a chance at salvation...you would have to twist God's word too much to say anything different, and that is exactly what this doctrine has done. Seems to me that you guys are pretty fixed on what you believe so I guess it's no bother arguing it anymore...I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Peace,

J

The context of 2Pet. 3:9 will help.

2Pe 3:9