I chose JESUS

[larryt]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 28 2008, 02:05 PM)

QUOTE

So God only chooses those that He knows will choose Him.

No, because no one chooses God. It has already been established that salvation has never been based on man choosing God. Furthermore there is not ONE place in Scripture, not one Scripture you have provided, which claims that God chooses who will or will not be saved. The best you have been able to show is that God foreknew who would be saved and those are the people He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

QUOTE

God is subject to the will of man is is therefore not sovereign. That is ridiculous and is not the absolute sovereign God of the scriptures.

No, that is a complete misrepresentation of what I have said. The sovereignty of God and the free agency of man are not mutually exclusive concepts. Part of the problem is your skewed understanding of God's sovereignty.

It is the logical conclusion of what you say.

John Gill

Ver. 29. For whom he did foreknow, &c.] The foreknowledge of God here, does not intend his prescience of all things future; by which he foreknows and foretells things to come, and which distinguishes him from all other gods; and is so called, not with respect to himself, with whom all things are present, but with respect to us, and which is eternal, universal, certain, and infallible; for in this sense he foreknows all men, and if this was the meaning here, then all men would be predestinated, conformed to the image of Christ, called by grace, justified and glorified; whereas they are a special people, whom God has foreknown: nor is this foreknowledge to be understood of any provision or foresight of the good works, holiness, faith, and perseverance of men therein, upon which God predestinates them to happiness; since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these

Reposting this quote from Gill is not going to change anything. I have no problem with what Gill says pertaining to God's love for those He foreknew.

You cannot deal with the highlighted parts and tried to obscure what Gill wrote. The fact is that you do have a problem with what Gill wrote. He directly contradicts your position. It is not God's love for those He did foreknow. Fore know means to fore-love.

since this would make something out of God, and not his good pleasure, the cause of predestination; which was done before, and without any consideration of good or evil, and is entirely owing to the free grace of God, and is the ground and foundation of good works, faith, holiness, and perseverance in them: but this regards the everlasting love of God to his own people, his delight in them, and approbation of them; in this sense he knew them, he foreknew them from everlasting, affectionately loved them, and took infinite delight and pleasure in them; and this is the foundation of their predestination and election, of their conformity to Christ, of their calling, justification, and glorification: for these

My problem is with your unbiblical assertion that God's foreknowledge was based choosing who will or will not be saved. Foreknowledge does encompass more than simply prescience, but it does include it and that is an inescapable truth.

Why is it that you have to put words in my mouth. God does not choose who will and will not be saved but who will be saved out of those that are lost. All are lost and if God decides to save only one or some or many or all who am I to question God.

LT

[Guest shiloh357]

You cannot deal with the highlighted parts and tried to obscure what Gill wrote. The fact is that you do have a problem with what Gill wrote. He directly contradicts your position. It is not God's love for those He did foreknow. Fore know means to fore-love.

Yeah, already acknowledged that. My problem has been with your assertion that God had an intimate relationship with "the chosen" prior to foundations of the earth. My problem is that you further with your teaching than does Gill. I happen to have Gill's commentary and use it in my own study, and have never come away from Gill believing the nonsense you are espousing. I doubt very highly that he would appreciate you connecting him to such ridiculous assertions.

QUOTE

My problem is with your unbiblical assertion that God's foreknowledge was based choosing who will or will not be saved. Foreknowledge does encompass more than simply prescience, but it does include it and that is an inescapable truth.

Why is it that you have to put words in my mouth. God does not choose who will and will not be saved but who will be saved out of those that are lost. All are lost and if God decides to save only one or some or many or all who am I to question God.

I am not putting words in your mouth. You have already stated that God justified and glorifed "the chosen" before the foundations of the earth. Both of those terms are indicative of salvation, as they represent the beginning and end of the salvific process. So if God chooses before the foundation of the earth who will be saved and if they are already justified and glorified even before they are born, then by default, God has chosen who will not be saved, as He did NOT justifiy or glorify them.

The problem is further complicated by the fact that you have not come close to demonstrating that God only chose a select group. There is not one direct statement from the Bible that asserts such.

[Guest shiloh357]

So God only chooses those that He knows will choose Him.

No, because no one chooses God. It has already been established that salvation has never been based on man choosing God. Furthermore there is not ONE place in Scripture, not one Scripture you have provided, which claims that God chooses who will or will not be saved. The best you have been able to show is that God foreknew who would be saved and those are the people He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

God is subject to the will of man is is therefore not sovereign. That is ridiculous and is not the absolute sovereign God of the scriptures.

No, that is a complete misrepresentation of what I have said. The sovereignty of God and the free agency of man are not mutually exclusive concepts. Part of the problem is your skewed understanding of God's sovereignty.

I have noticed that you seem to ignore the fact that God's sovereignty does not impede the free agency of man in other contexts. God's sovereign will is that no one murder, steal, commit adultery, use His Name in vain, covet, lie, etc. Those things are in direct opposition to God's sovereign will. Yet, men choose to murder, steal, commit adultery, use His Name in vain, covet, lie, etc. all of this done in complete contradiction to His sovereignty and often in full knowledge that doing such things are against God's sovereign decree. Yet, I do not find ONE person claiming that God's sovereign will is some how reproached by man's moral agency in such matters.

Yet, when it comes to the issue of salvation and man's choice to obey or not obey, suddenly, man is no longer a free agent to accept or reject God's offer of salvation. What is more, we are not even really dealing with a commandment per se, but of God's offer of a free gift of eternal life.

There are two aspects of God's will. God has a perfect will which is revealed in God's law, as a reflection of His perfect standard of righteous, holy living. Yet, God has another aspect, a permissive aspect, which is why He allows man to do those things that are in complete contradiction to what He has sovereignly decreed they should or should not do.

God

[kross]

So God only chooses those that He knows will choose Him.

No, because no one chooses God. It has already been established that salvation has never been based on man choosing God. Furthermore there is not ONE place in Scripture, not one Scripture you have provided, which claims that God chooses who will or will not be saved. The best you have been able to show is that God foreknew who would be saved and those are the people He predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

God is subject to the will of man is is therefore not sovereign. That is ridiculous and is not the absolute sovereign God of the scriptures.

No, that is a complete misrepresentation of what I have said. The sovereignty of God and the free agency of man are not mutually exclusive concepts. Part of the problem is your skewed understanding of God's sovereignty.

I have noticed that you seem to ignore the fact that God's sovereignty does not impede the free agency of man in other contexts. God's sovereign will is that no one murder, steal, commit adultery, use His Name in vain, covet, lie, etc. Those things are in direct opposition to God's sovereign will. Yet, men choose to murder, steal, commit adultery, use His Name in vain, covet, lie, etc. all of this done in complete contradiction to His sovereignty and often in full knowledge that doing such things are against God's sovereign decree. Yet, I do not find ONE person claiming that God's sovereign will is some how reproached by man's moral agency in such matters.

Yet, when it comes to the issue of salvation and man's choice to obey or not obey, suddenly, man is no longer a free agent to accept or reject God's offer of salvation. What is more, we are not even really dealing with a commandment per se, but of God's offer of a free gift of eternal life.

There are two aspects of God's will. God has a perfect will which is revealed in God's law, as a reflection of His perfect standard of righteous, holy living. Yet, God has another aspect, a permissive aspect, which is why He allows man to do those things that are in complete contradiction to what He has sovereignly decreed they should or should not do.

God

[Guest shiloh357]

So, your understanding is that the call and convictin of the HOLY SPIRIT can fail to convict.

No, but it can be resisted. Many people reject God and/or His will in the midst of conviction.

[kross]

So, your understanding is that the call and convictin of the HOLY SPIRIT can fail to convict.

No, but it can be resisted. Many people reject God and/or His will in the midst of conviction.

So, you believe HE just does the same thing with everyone and whatever happens happens.

If you say so.

I lost me house and job and business and was staring homeless and jobless in the face. I was given a place to live by a Christian guy I met once. Because of all that, I was led to the LORD.

It is your belief that all of that was just good luck and those who do not have this fortunate happinstance are just out of luck. I can not believe that.

I believe that every person GOD loves HE will move heaven and earth to save them and bring them into the family. HIS love is so passionate that HE will not loose one. I understand that you do not see it that way.

But the idea that GOD just does what ever it is that is enough to make HIM feel HE did somehing and then doesn't go the extra mile to ensure someone is saved, just does not fit what I know about GOD.

HE knows exactly what it takes to convict every person HE made to the point that they will do nothing but respond. If HE does not do this...

I was not saved by pure good fortune. I was saved by a Damascus road experience (not ignoring Paul) All of which was orchestrated by GOD.

I am sorry, that is not the GOD in the Bible I read. You say there is no biblical foundation for GOD choosing to save , I say there is no foundation for the idea that HE just leaves it up to whoever might...whatever.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 29 2008, 06:21 PM)

QUOTE

So, your understanding is that the call and convictin of the HOLY SPIRIT can fail to convict.

No, but it can be resisted. Many people reject God and/or His will in the midst of conviction.

If you say so.

No, its the Bible that says so. The Bible is full of examples of people who resist the conviction and calling of the Lord.

I lost me house and job and business as was staring homeless and jobless in the face. I was given a place to live by a Christian guy I met once. Because of all that, I was led to the LORD.

It is your belief that all of that was just good luck and those who do not have this fortunate happinstance are just out of luck. I can not believe that.

When did I say anything about "luck?" This is so typical. You can't really engage what I am saying, so you assign values to my position that I have never claimed or even implied. That is the weakness of your position. You have put the lie in my mouth and then argue against it. Hardly an honest approach.

I believe that every person GOD loves HE will move heaven and to save them and bring them into the family. HIS love is so passionate that HE will not loose one. I understand that you do not see it that way.

Again with the false motives. If your position is true, God does not have to "move heaven" to save anyone He has already chosen will be saved and has removed any possible obstacle to them being saved. From your standpoint, it is already an accomplished fact, not something God has to fight for. You are just trying to be dramatic.

But the idea that GOD just does what ever it is that is enough to make HIM feel HE did somehing and then doesn't go the extra mile to ensure someone is saved, just does not fit what I know about GOD.

When did I ever say that? You are just an angry little man. You can't approach my position with integrity, so you have make up arguments that I never raised and the project them onto me in order to have something to debate about. Again, it only shows that you have nothing to say.

It is very difficult to have an intelligent discussion when you are bent upon imposing things to me that I never said or even eluded to believing, and most of which actually are the opposite of what I have already posted previously on the other thread and on this one. You are really not going to get far with this kind of tactic.

HE knows exactly what it takes to convict every person HE made to the point that they will do nothing but respond. If HE does not do this...

But see, that is not love. True love is always something that is given freely and it is something that must be accepted freely, otherwise love has absolutely no value. That is how God designed love. God loves mankind, but God has never imposed that love or overridden human will to make someone love Him. Sure, God could make it so that every person He encounters has no choice but to respond to His love... In human terms, we call that rape.

[Guest shiloh357]

I am sorry, that is not the GOD in the Bible I read. You say there is no biblical foundation for GOD choosing to save ,

No that is is not what I said. Salvation is the product of God's choice. God could have chosen to destroy Adam and Eve and not provide a plan of redemption. God chose to be merciful and chose to redeem man. I never said that God did not choose to save. What I said is that there is no biblical foundation (and you have yet to prove me wrong) for the notion that God chose some to save and leaves the rest of humanity to go to hell.

I say there is no foundation for the idea that HE just leaves it up to whoever might...whatever.

Which is not what I said either, (sigh).

It would be helpful if you could muster up enough Christian character to respond to what I actually say instead of responding to what you think I said, or what you can make up and pretend I said, simply because you cannot produce a substantive response. Your dishonest tactics are getting a bit old.

[kross]

I am sorry, that is not the GOD in the Bible I read. You say there is no biblical foundation for GOD choosing to save ,

No that is is not what I said. Salvation is the product of God's choice. God could have chosen to destroy Adam and Eve and not provide a plan of redemption. God chose to be merciful and chose to redeem man. I never said that God did not choose to save. What I said is that there is no biblical foundation (and you have yet to prove me wrong) for the notion that God chose some to save and leaves the rest of humanity to go to hell.

I say there is no foundation for the idea that HE just leaves it up to whoever might...whatever.

Which is not what I said either, (sigh).

It would be helpful if you could muster up enough Christian character to respond to what I actually say instead of responding to what you think I said, or what you can make up and pretend I said, simply because you cannot produce a substantive response. Your dishonest tactics are getting a bit old.

That is singularly the spupidest thing I ever read. I am supposed to respond to what you say without respoinding in accordance to how I understand what you say. So I am supposed to repond to spmething that is not what I have understood. DUH?

I am sorry that you take everyhting as some kind of personal attack. I am just voicing how I understand what you say. I have posted the scriptures and made the arguements and responded more than enough.

I do not think GOD left my salvation up to me. HE went out of HIS way to make sure I responded to HIM. HE loves me enough to not allow my salvation to be left to chance.

You assert that HE doesnt do what is needed to save everyone HE wants saved. I do not agree. Done now

[Guest shiloh357]

That is singularly the spupidest thing I ever read. I am supposed to respond to what you say without respoinding in accordance to how I understand what you say. So I am supposed to repond to spmething that is not what I have understood. DUH?

The problem is that you making things up and attributing to me things that are not even remotely close to what I have said. It is not a case of you responding to how you understand me. You are putting words in my mouth and telling me that I believe in humanism, or that I think God left salvation up to chance, none of which I said or implied and could not gleaned from anything I have said. The only answer is that you choose to misrepresent what I have said in act of desparation, as it is apparent that you are bereft of anything to say that is actually matieral to the conversation. These kind of dishonest tactics of yours are more a sign of desparation than anything else.

I am sorry that you take everyhting as some kind of perswonal attack. I am just voicing how I understand what you say.

No you are attributing to me things that don't even come close to anything I have posted. You either cannot approach this honestly, or you have problems with reading comprhension.

I do not think GOD left my salvation up to me.

I don't think he did either. Salvation is a work of God, not the product of your effort. If God left salvation up to us, none of us would be saved, as none us of are good enough or wise enough or powerful enough to engineer the plan of redemption.

HE went out of HIS way to make sure I responded to HIM.

Everyone who hears the gospel responds. They either say yes or no.

HE loves me enough to not allow my salvation to be left to chance.

No one said he left it up to chance. He presents you with His gift. There is nothing "chance" about it.

You assert that HE doesnt do what is needed to save everyone HE wants saved. I do not agree.

Where did I assert that? I said that if we assume your position is correct, God has already decided who is or is not saved. That was decided long before the earth was created, according to you. So God does not have to go to some herculean effort to see you get saved, if your position is true.

God HAS done everthing He needed to do to make salvation avaialable to all.