IS GOD's will done

[kross]

I think an important question would be this...

Why would God go the trouble of revealing what His will is, and then cause people to do things that are outside of His will?

If God says murder, rape, etc. are sins and thus are against His Will, why would God then "okay" with or even cause to happen anything outside of His Will? How is that a scriptural demonstration of God's sovereignty? How can it be God's will for men to do things that contradict His Will?

Kross and larryt are both presenting a self-defeating argument. They are essentially arguing that God coerces or even approves of things being done that He has revealed are against His Will in the Scriptures. It is an example of extremely sloppy theology.

I did not respond to this before but I see that thewe words are now being attributed to me.

GOD does not have to coerce men to sin. Left to their own devices, with a little help from Satan, men will sin tillthe cows come home. They will waller in it. All GOD has to do is not restrain their tendancy, and they will do what they do.

It is not of GOD that people sin, it is of GOD if people do not.

All I have stated is that if sin exists in GOD creation, than it is here as part of HIS plan.

Without sin, no one would have crucified JESUS and that is why JESUS came. So sin was a part of the plan to kill JESUS.

[kross]

"You stated that it was GOD's intent to create a world where there would be no sin, and that this world is not what HE intended. Those are your words." kross

you have my posts mixed up with someone elses. check my posts and your facts. thank you.

There are so many. Sorry

[Guest shiloh357]

I think an important question would be this...

Why would God go the trouble of revealing what His will is, and then cause people to do things that are outside of His will?

If God says murder, rape, etc. are sins and thus are against His Will, why would God then "okay" with or even cause to happen anything outside of His Will? How is that a scriptural demonstration of God's sovereignty? How can it be God's will for men to do things that contradict His Will?

Kross and larryt are both presenting a self-defeating argument. They are essentially arguing that God coerces or even approves of things being done that He has revealed are against His Will in the Scriptures. It is an example of extremely sloppy theology.

I did not respond to this before but I see that thewe words are now being attributed to me.

GOD does not have to coerce men to sin. Left to their own devices, with a little help from Satan, men will sin tillthe cows come home. They will waller in it. All GOD has to do is not restrain their tendancy, and they will do what they do.

It is not of GOD that people sin, it is of GOD if people do not.

All I have stated is that if sin exists in GOD creation, than it is here as part of HIS plan.

Without sin, no one would have crucified JESUS and that is why JESUS came. So sin was a part of the plan to kill JESUS.

Sorry Kross, but I have already have you on record as claiming that you could accept the idea that God wanted a little girl to be raped and murdered, and there are plenty of other people who have gotten the same from your words as well. You are simply not willing to accept responsibility for what you have said.

[RebekahDavid]

32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

God's point

[RebekahDavid]

I think an important question would be this...

Why would God go the trouble of revealing what His will is, and then cause people to do things that are outside of His will?

If God says murder, rape, etc. are sins and thus are against His Will, why would God then "okay" with or even cause to happen anything outside of His Will? How is that a scriptural demonstration of God's sovereignty? How can it be God's will for men to do things that contradict His Will?

Kross and larryt are both presenting a self-defeating argument. They are essentially arguing that God coerces or even approves of things being done that He has revealed are against His Will in the Scriptures. It is an example of extremely sloppy theology.

The question is;

Is GOD revealing HIS will or HIS nature?

The answer is that God is revealing neither. It not in the nature of God sin, to condone sin, or to approve of it. Sin is the opposite of God's Will. Like I said, you present a self-defeating argument.

You are saying God, who Has revealed His perfect Will, will cause men to do what is outside of His Will in order to accomplish His Will.

Your OP asks is God's will done. You claim it is always done even if God has to cause man to do what is not In His Will. If God causes man to sin, then God's Will is NOT done on earth as it is in Heaven and you blaming God directly and attributing sin to God as well.

No rational person will accept that kind of argument.

exactly

[kross]

There is where you are adding to what I have stated. GOD does not cause people to sin.

That is exactly what you said, that is exactly what everyone else has understood you to say. You even said that God could be "okay" with a little girl getting raped and murdered. You stated that NOTHING happens outside of God's Will and you did not qualify that statement.

And Yes, you DID Say God caused people to sin Please note your earlier response in this thread:

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Dec 29 2008, 09:31 PM)

QUOTE (kross @ Dec 29 2008, 08:21 PM)

Why do you think GOD created Satan?

Surely GOD knew Satan's nature and what HE would do and be.

So, is Satan operating in GOD's will?

You think the rape and murder of a little girl is worse than any other sin GOD allows?

And YES, the fall of this world and the continued decay until it comes to an end is GODs will and it is exactly what HE said was the plan.

I am not talking about what God allows. I am talking about your OP. Your OP is about God Will be done. Is the girl who was raped and killed just the other day in this town an example of the Will of God being DONE? Did God want her raped and murdered? Stop trying to skirt around the question with answers about what God "allows." I am talking the actual Will of God being done.

Kross' Answer>>> "I believe everything that happens in this world is GOD's will. How is that skirting. The answer is yes."

The above is taken from Post #33 of this thread. Nothing happens outside of God's Will according to Kross, and this includes the rape of a little 14 year old girl last week, in my hometown. A very wicked position to hold.

All I have stated is that sin is a part of GOD's plan for this world.

You have gone much further than that, and the Bible NEVER says that sin is a part of God's plan. That is something you are adding to word of God.

If it were not, then JESUS would not have been the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Sorry but you have got it backwards.

If GOD set out to create something that this world is not, than HE failed to create what HE wanted. I can not believe in GOD failing.

So you are saying that God created and intended for the world to be sinful, and He designed it so that man would fall and what We see today is the product of that design? And yet you claim that God does not cause man to sin? Are you drinking?

It is continually stated that the infinite power of man's freewill destroyed what GOD wanted the world to be. Man is not that powerful.

I have never heard anyone say that.

That is fine. I can not believe that GOD set out to create something and failed to do it.

The problem here is that no one claimed God failed. Your argument is really an assault on God's character.

God knew man would fail. He knew man would sin and He had plan in place even before creation to redeem man back. God created a world perfect in the full knowledge that man would rebel. That is not a failure on God's part. The failure is on our part. We are the ones who disobeyed. God did orchestrate the fall of man just so He could send Jesus. That is both laughable and unbiblical. Fortunately, the rest of us dont get our theology from a box of Cracker Jacks. We prefer the Scriptures .

The approach I am hearing is like a kid with a chemistry set. HE tossed all the ingredients in that would result in what is here, but HE did not know what that would be.

No, that is you again, trying assign your values to our position in order to have something to debate against. An honest approach is just not something you are capable of.

I did not say GOD caused people to sin. I said sin is part of HIS plan. There is a difference.

I did not say that the rapist raped because of GOD, I said that it fit into GOD's plans. There is a difference.

There is a post that started that conversation where somebody stated that GOD created this world with an intention that there would be no sin in it. It is from that post that the statement is made, if that is true than HE failed.

My point is that it was in GOD's plan that man would sin. HE did not just toss it all together and not expect it to be what it is. HE created it and is in full control of it.

You are so good at accusations and false statements and then pointing fingers at other people. You say I add words to what you post and yet you just did it right up there.

Debate would indicate I am out to win something. I do not care if you agree with what I say or not. I post ideas and beliefs. You don't like them, that is fine with me.

You choose to believe that this rape and murder was out of GOD's control. HE could not have stopped it and it was just a meaningless act of violence and death. I choose to believe that GOD has an eternal purpose for every life and every action and that nothing is out of HIS ccontrol.

I have said it before and I will say it again, your point of view is from the finite human view of creation and you can not see that simple acts by satan can serve the greater purpose of GOD and thus are a part of HIS plan. But I accept that GOD will sacrifice a dozen people to save one. All of heaven rejoices when GOD saves a soul. It is that important.

This temporary home with all it's stuff is not the point. It is what comes next that is the reason GOD created all this.

Many a person has been saved in prison as a result of a crime you would think is horrible.

[kross]

I think an important question would be this...

Why would God go the trouble of revealing what His will is, and then cause people to do things that are outside of His will?

If God says murder, rape, etc. are sins and thus are against His Will, why would God then "okay" with or even cause to happen anything outside of His Will? How is that a scriptural demonstration of God's sovereignty? How can it be God's will for men to do things that contradict His Will?

Kross and larryt are both presenting a self-defeating argument. They are essentially arguing that God coerces or even approves of things being done that He has revealed are against His Will in the Scriptures. It is an example of extremely sloppy theology.

I did not respond to this before but I see that thewe words are now being attributed to me.

GOD does not have to coerce men to sin. Left to their own devices, with a little help from Satan, men will sin tillthe cows come home. They will waller in it. All GOD has to do is not restrain their tendancy, and they will do what they do.

It is not of GOD that people sin, it is of GOD if people do not.

All I have stated is that if sin exists in GOD creation, than it is here as part of HIS plan.

Without sin, no one would have crucified JESUS and that is why JESUS came. So sin was a part of the plan to kill JESUS.

Sorry Kross, but I have already have you on record as claiming that you could accept the idea that God wanted a little girl to be raped and murdered, and there are plenty of other people who have gotten the same from your words as well. You are simply not willing to accept responsibility for what you have said.

And I will still say that I can accept that GOD could have wanted this to happen. You and I do not know what all of the ramifications of this act are in the future and the eternal. You see this from the human point of view, GOD sees it in the light of how it will effect every person on the planet. I am more than willing to accept that GOD is able to make one vessel for honor and one for dishonor as HE sees fit. I will not stand in judgement of what HE does with HIS creation.

When you are orchestrating the lives of 8 billion people, with a specific outcome in mind, you just might have to look down through time and space and decide what evil to hold back and what evil to allow to happen in order to come to the point you are working towards.

[RebekahDavid]

kross i have posted scripture on what God says about harming a child and other things. regardless of however you want to spin things to make them fit your theology it is meaningless when it goes against God's Word.

[Guest shiloh357]

I did not say GOD caused people to sin. I said sin is part of HIS plan. There is a difference.

I did not say that the rapist raped because of GOD, I said that it fit into GOD's plans. There is a difference.

Yeah kinda like difference between chopping down a tree, and cutting down a tree. You are really stretching things. I asked you point blank if the God wanted the girl raped. Your response "The Answer is Yes."

Sorry Kross, but your words have pretty much painted you in corner on this.

My point is that it was in GOD's plan that man would sin.

Which is the same as saying God caused it. He caused, it planned it. That is what you are saying.

You are so good at accusations and false statements and then pointing fingers at other people. You say I add words to what you post and yet you just did it right up there.

No, I POSTED your exact words. You are man enough, and do not possess the integrity or the courage to take responsibility for your words.

You choose to believe that this rape and murder was out of GOD's control.

No, taht is not what I believe, but neither would make the wicked claim that it happened within the Will God either.

I choose to believe that GOD has an eternal purpose for every life and every action and that nothing is out of HIS ccontrol.

So when a man molests a young boy, when someone robs a convenience store and murdes the clerk, when a man beats His wife to a pulp, that is just God working His Will?

I am sorry, but there is nothing biblical or even Christian about your view.

I have said it before and I will say it again, your point of view is from the finite human view of creation and you can not see that simple acts by satan can serve the greater purpose of GOD and thus are a part of HIS plan.

No my view is from the Bible, and I would like to point that out that so far, you have not been able to provide one ounce of Scripture to support your wicked theology.

But I accept that GOD will sacrifice a dozen people to save one. All of heaven rejoices when GOD saves a soul. It is that important.

The Bible NEVER says that God sacrifices one sinner to save another sinner. That is again attributing something to God that is not true. You may accept it, but you don't get it from the Bible.

Many a person has been saved in prison as a result of a crime you would think is horrible.

They got saved inspite of the crime, not as a result of it.

Do you go to church?

[RebekahDavid]

Jesus said:

Matthew 23:37:O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

it is very apparent that it was the Lord's will to gather them but they would not