Did Jesus die for everyone?

[larryt]

The following is my personal belief ...

This would include those in a remote village in South America at the time of Jesus. Through His creation, they knew God, even though they did not know His name or His words, they knew Him. If a person is in tune to the Holy Spirit and obeys Him, they will still be doing Gods will, for the Holy Spirit will never lead anyone astray but only instruct from what the Father tells Him. Because of this, their law that is written in their heart will be like that of one who has read and studied His word, without understanding why. In the hearts of these people, God has worked and has changed them. God will judge these by what is in their heart.

If you believe this then you are in error about doctrine. I acknowledge that you say this is your personal belief. I find your personal belief though is not sound doctrine because it addresses a doctrinal point.

If you need a direct answer, yes. The Gospel did not come until after Christ died. To say no would say that every person that lived before Christ are not saved, including every writer of the OT.

You said that people can be saved apart form hearing the gospel. This is heresy even if it is your personal belief. And this is just the way heresy creeps into the church. People bring their own personal ideas which eventually are accepted as fact. Men are only saved in both the OT & NT by faith that God would redeem them and save them from their sins.

This is something I feel I cannot let just go away. We are to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

If you really don't belief this why did you bring it in in the first place?

LT

Larry, you forgot to include where this all started. Allow me to post the whoel post and not just the part where you focus on ...

I believe that Romans 2:12-16 covers that question.

Exactly!

Got judges the hearts of those who had not heard the word, for by nature, they knew God for God is in all creation as found in Romans 1:20 ...

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

So is Rom. 2:12-16 saying that they are saved even though they never heard the Gospel?

LT

Let's look at what it says ...

Romans 2:12-16 (New King James Version)

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

I have underlined the words that tell us that what is written in their hearts, and their conscience bearing witness, is what God looks at when one does not know, nor have ever heard, His words or Him. God does speak into the lives of those who have not heard His word. The Holy Spirit does convict the world of sin, not limiting Himself to only those who have heard the word.

The following is my personal belief ...

This would include those in a remote village in South America at the time of Jesus. Through His creation, they knew God, even though they did not know His name or His words, they knew Him. If a person is in tune to the Holy Spirit and obeys Him, they will still be doing Gods will, for the Holy Spirit will never lead anyone astray but only instruct from what the Father tells Him. Because of this, their law that is written in their heart will be like that of one who has read and studied His word, without understanding why. In the hearts of these people, God has worked and has changed them. God will judge these by what is in their heart.

Now, step back up to the whole post and tell me what you think about the underlined sections.

I will acknowledge that you hold fast to your belief that everyone that is saved has been appointed, to elected, before time, which I personally believe that this is the only reason why you can not accept anything I am saying, because that would mean that you agree that man has a will to choose God, so maybe this discussion isn't going to go anywhere after all. I believe that man has to accept Christ in order to be saved.

You quoted scripture that many are called but few are chosen. They are not chosen because they did not accept the calling. It was their choice to accept or not. That is why they were not chosen. Why would God call someone He did not elect in the first place???

You mention free will, and your definition of free will is probably what keep us from an understanding. Dave123 has a thread where does good come from in which he addresses that issue.

I need to know what you mean by free will. Check out this site please.

What are you free from.

LT

[larryt]

. . . The Holy Spirit convicts men by the preaching of the Gospel. . . .

Really? Sounds like and incredible limiting of the power of the Holy Spirit.

. . . There is no conviction of sin without the preaching of the Gospel. . . .

Actually, the law convicts . . .

Ovedya said it quite well,

I disagree with the notion that the gospel did not "come" until Christ died.

John proclaimed, "Repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand." This was John's proclamation of the arrival of Christ, who is Himself, the essence of the Gospel. Christ, as the fulfillment of prophesy, as the seed of David and as the Son of God, is Himself, in reality, the Gospel.

Jesus Christ, the Word of God, is preached when the law is preached and also forgiveness.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I am not limiting the Holy Spirit. It is He that chose to change the hearts of man by the foolishness of preaching.

LT

[legoman]

I thought he paid the debt for the whole world. That is what the scripture you posted at the top said:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Sorry if you discussed this verse earlier in the thread, I didn't see it.

Cheers,

Legoman

Hi lego,

What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77?

LT

Hi LT,

I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up.

Legoman

Edited January 14, 2009 by legoman

[larryt]

I thought he paid the debt for the whole world. That is what the scripture you posted at the top said:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Sorry if you discussed this verse earlier in the thread, I didn't see it.

Cheers,

Legoman

Hi lego,

What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77?

LT

Hi LT,

I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up.

Legoman

The reason I posted it is because I thought it was clear to me what he was trying to get across. That Jesus did not die for the sins of everyone or everyone would be saved. That is to say that His death is sufficient to pay for all the sins of all the saved people. Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

[BlindSeeker]

I thought he paid the debt for the whole world. That is what the scripture you posted at the top said:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Sorry if you discussed this verse earlier in the thread, I didn't see it.

Cheers,

Legoman

Hi lego,

What do you think of the quote from John Owen, English puritan from the 1600's posted #77?

LT

Hi LT,

I read it over and didn't quite understand his reasoning. Clearly Jesus' death covers all sin (past, present, and future) for everyone. That is what the scriptures say. However that doesn't mean we don't need to be judged and corrected. We will still go through the fire and have our gold & silver purified and the stubble & straw burnt up.

Legoman

The reason I posted it is because I thought it was clear to me what he was trying to get across. That Jesus did not die for the sins of everyone or everyone would be saved. That is to say that His death is sufficient to pay for all the sins of all the saved people. Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

Because His merces are as high as the heavens . . .

So that all men are without excuse . . . else some could say, "I could not be saved because He died not for me."

[OneLight]

You mention free will, and your definition of free will is probably what keep us from an understanding. Dave123 has a thread where does good come from in which he addresses that issue.

I need to know what you mean by free will. Check out this site please.

What are you free from.

LT

It is very easy, Larry. I do not believe in predestination, or salvation for the elect only. I believe that Christ died for all mankind, and those who, through their free will, choose to accept His salvation and forgiveness, repent and be saved.

I have to ask why you have not answered my questions? Seems like every time I ask, you bring up a different subject and we continue without you ever answering them. Makes me wonder why.

[traveller]

Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

Because His merces are as high as the heavens . . .

So that all men are without excuse . . . else some could say, "I could not be saved because He died not for me."

Amen Brother!

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Funny word - whosoever.

[kross]

I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never said that God is a party to man's sin, nor do I believe it.

No, I don't have you confused with anyone else, and I am not the only who has come away from your writings feeling the same way. You stated that God designed everything including the fall of man, which ultimately makes God party man's sin. You don't want to frame it that way, but that is the only conclusion that can be drawn from your words. You have stood with kross in the belief that nothing occurs outside the Will of God. You even tried to concoct a scenario where the rape and murder of an innocent girl could be in the Will of God. Frankly, you are not really honest about what you believe.

And all the rest of your accusations are based on your misconceptions on what it is that I do believe.

No, they are based on what you have posted.

I know it is difficult to convey ideas with just the written word, and I know that I am not as gifted in that area as others. You would do well to try to hear what some people are really saying instead of being an inquisitor.

It's not difficult at all to convey ideas with the written word, when it is the truth. It is when you are trying to make an unbiblical doctrine fit the Scriptures like a square peg in a round hole, that things suddenly become difficult. You are trying to mold the Bible around what you believe. I simply work off of what the Bible says as opposed to your approach. Neither am I being an inquisitor. I simply know the truth. When you know the truth, there is no obligation to entertain other ideas. You would not treat the symptoms of a cold if you have cure. Likewise, you don't need to entertain opinions when you have the truth.

WOW LARRY,

Welcome to my world.

[kross]

If all men would repent, confess their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ - then all would be saved.

If they would is a big IF. I agree that If they would. The problem is that they won't. No man would if left to his own devises.

LT

But no man is left to his own devices . . . the Holy Spirit is convicting the world of sin, judgment and righteousness. It is how they respond to the Holy Spirit that determines their fate. A simple study of the sermon on the mount should be evidence enough.

Mt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

This hunger and thirsting is the result of a proper heart response to the working of God's Spirit. It is those who harden their heart that grieve the Holy Spirit.

OR,

This hunger and thirst is put in someone by the HOLY SPIRIT

[kross]

Why would He pay for the sins of those that reject Him since He knew they would?

LT

Because His merces are as high as the heavens . . .

So that all men are without excuse . . . else some could say, "I could not be saved because He died not for me."

Amen Brother!

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Funny word - whosoever.

The thing about this word "whosoever" is that it means "anybody who will". There is not one person posting in this thread who disagrees. The only question in this thread is, who are the "whosoever"?

All who come to JESUS will be saved and HE will in no wise cast any out. That is a given.

The question is, do they come as a result of their choosing to come of their own free will apart from GOD doing an amazing work of giving them a new heart and a living spirit, and birthing them new as spiritual beings?

Do they come because of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT or does the HOLY SPIRIT do a work because they came. Which came first, being born again or confessing JESUS?

The word "whosoever" doesn't answer any of those questions. "all that the FATHER has given to me will come to me" also addresses the "whosoever" because if all that the FATHER has granted to come, will come, than they comprise the entirety of the "WHOSOEVER". (unless it is possible for those not given to JESUS to come)